Advice for Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

[BoydAllen]

Absolutely, this proves that the idea of "set and forget" the tuner is not the best method for realizing best performance from the tuner.

I believe results, and if you look at the competition record of Gene Buckys, whose tuner remains popular, finding the best setting and then leaving the tuner there and making adjustments with powder charge worked. Others who have done well have used that method. In short, I think that it is clear that there is more than one way to use a tuner.

Buckys and others have said that tuners increase the width of nodes. They also can create positive compensation which is what Varmint Al's work was all about. If you end up with both, I think that there is a definite advantage.

Unfortunately tuners cannot read wind flags.

Mike Ezell's tuners incorporate a unique method of damping vibration that I believe has advantages. A friend uses then and finds them easy to tune with. He is not one to stick with anything that does not perform up to expectations.

I have experience with three other designs that have lead me to believe that while tuners are not mandatory, that the can be advantageous. The problem for some who try them seems to be that they introduce an additional variable into the tuning process, that they may not be able to get a handle on. Fortunately Mike offers personal service to his customers.

 

[Shooter13]

I believe results, and if you look at the competition record of Gene Buckys, whose tuner remains popular, finding the best setting and then leaving the tuner there and making adjustments with powder charge worked. Others who have done well have used that method. In short, I think that it is clear that there is more than one way to use a tuner.

Buckys and others have said that tuners increase the width of nodes. They also can create positive compensation which is what Varmint Al's work was all about. If you end up with both, I think that there is a definite advantage.

Unfortunately tuners cannot read wind flags.

Mike Ezell's tuners incorporate a unique method of damping vibration that I believe has advantages. A friend uses then and finds them easy to tune with. He is not one to stick with anything that does not perform up to expectations.

I have experience with three other designs that have lead me to believe that while tuners are not mandatory, that the can be advantageous. The problem for some who try them seems to be that they introduce an additional variable into the tuning process, that they may not be able to get a handle on. Fortunately Mike offers personal service to his customers.

Love this reply, you can't just screw a tuner on and be done, it takes a little work but work it does!

 

[Jeff Porter]

Never used a tuner so rookie question… if I do a work up and get the tuner dialed in real well, then take it off to shoot with a brake for a while…( don’t know why I would do that but if I did ) When I put the tuner back on to the same settings will it hold the time with the same Load or will I need to re do the tune in process ?

 

[Bill Norris]

Never used a tuner so rookie question… if I do a work up and get the tuner dialed in real well, then take it off to shoot with a brake for a while…( don’t know why I would do that but if I did ) When I put the tuner back on to the same settings will it hold the time with the same Load or will I need to re do the tune in process ?

Atmospheric conditions will dictate whether it will still be in tune.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Never used a tuner so rookie question… if I do a work up and get the tuner dialed in real well, then take it off to shoot with a brake for a while…( don’t know why I would do that but if I did ) When I put the tuner back on to the same settings will it hold the time with the same Load or will I need to re do the tune in process ?

Like Bill just said, atmospherics will dictate precisely how far out it is, if at all but you'll never be more than just a few marks away, at most. With my tuner and a typical br contour bbl, that's typically no more than 4-5 marks but usually not even that much.

A brake commonly changes tune also, but again, even swapping the two parts around and it'll still be no more than 4-5 marks from shooting small again.

The reason is that tune repeats with frequency. The natural frequency is normally and essentially a constant. Changing from a brake to a tuner might make a small change in how far it is from in tune to completely out but it's likely worth a single mark or even less. I.e...instead of 4 marks, it might become 5. Not much difference at all. Same applies to barrel contours.
A typical short range bbl is most often four marks and a typical long range bbl, being longer, is most often five marks, from completely in tune to completely out of tune.

Once again, these are very common scenarios with MY tuner. Others will be somewhat different.

It's important to establish this number with whatever tuner you use. I walk people through a test that does that, along with establishing top and bottom of the bbl swing and the best settings..and why.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I didn’t read through this whole thread, but here is my quick take.

I believe the majority of people who buy tuners are under the presumption (reinforced by some tuner manufactures as well) that you can slap one on the end of your barrel, and within a short test you will have a noticeable increase in precision from dialing in your barrel to some magical harmonic window.

I believe Bryan did a great job showing that the scenario above is NOT the norm and opened up alot of shooters eyes to a rifles natural statistical dispersion.

And for that reason, for the majority of shooters applications (hunting, PRS), tuners do NOT work.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I didn’t read through this whole thread, but here is my quick take.

I believe the majority of people who buy tuners are under the presumption (reinforced by some tuner manufactures as well) that you can slap one on the end of your barrel, and within a short test you will have a noticeable increase in precision from dialing in your barrel to some magical harmonic window.

I believe Bryan did a great job showing that the scenario above is NOT the norm and opened up alot of shooters eyes to a rifles natural statistical dispersion.

And for that reason, for the majority of shooters applications (hunting, PRS), tuners do NOT work.

There are 11 pages of posts in this thread alone, many by people with experience using tuners. Overwhelmingly, those experienced users posts appear to refute your position. It might help if you do go back and read this thread and without predrawn conclusions. Tuners aren't new either, just often misused. Browning held a patent on their BOSS system used on hunting rifles as well. I'm not trying to debate with you, just suggesting you actually read this entire thread with at least a modicum toward actual results from experienced users and the scientific testing supporting them.

 

[Bill Norris]

Sigma said​

I believe the majority of people who buy tuners are under the presumption (reinforced by some tuner manufactures as well) that you can slap one on the end of your barrel, and within a short test you will have a noticeable increase in precision from dialing in your barrel to some magical harmonic window.

And I can tell you from experience that scenario will never work to give a shooter the best performance from his rifle/tuner combo. The same process used to develop a tuned load before a tuner is screwed onto the barrel has to be applied along with the use of any tuner no matter who built it. There is no "free lunch" here.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Sigma said​

I believe the majority of people who buy tuners are under the presumption (reinforced by some tuner manufactures as well) that you can slap one on the end of your barrel, and within a short test you will have a noticeable increase in precision from dialing in your barrel to some magical harmonic window.

And I can tell you from experience that scenario will never work to give a shooter the best performance from his rifle/tuner combo. The same process used to develop a tuned load before a tuner is screwed onto the barrel has to be applied along with the use of any tuner no matter who built it. There is no "free lunch" here.

Some people even buy rubber donuts, slide them on the barrel and call it good.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

There are 11 pages of posts in this thread alone, many by people with experience using tuners. Overwhelmingly, those experienced users posts appear to refute your position. It might help if you do go back and read this thread and without predrawn conclusions. Tuners aren't new either, just often misused. Browning held a patent on their BOSS system used on hunting rifles as well. I'm not trying to debate with you, just suggesting you actually read this entire thread with at least a modicum toward actual results from experienced users and the scientific testing supporting them.

I never said tuners do not work, I just believe the majority who have bought them are under the false presumption that they can use them to turn any subpar shooting load into a finely tuned one.

 

[jelenko]

I never said tuners do not work, I just believe the majority who have bought them are under the false presumption that they can use them to turn any subpar shooting load into a finely tuned one.

From reading almost all of the posts, I have the same take.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Sigma said​

I believe the majority of people who buy tuners are under the presumption (reinforced by some tuner manufactures as well) that you can slap one on the end of your barrel, and within a short test you will have a noticeable increase in precision from dialing in your barrel to some magical harmonic window.

And I can tell you from experience that scenario will never work to give a shooter the best performance from his rifle/tuner combo. The same process used to develop a tuned load before a tuner is screwed onto the barrel has to be applied along with the use of any tuner no matter who built it. There is no "free lunch" here

I mostly agree with that and have said as much in this thread and with virtually every customer. A tuner can only give the potential of the gun and load combination. Even lot to lot changes in custom bullets can affect that potential.

And, while I always recommend normal load workup be done in order to find that potential, I've also stated that many times, I have thrown known good loads at multiple barrels and clamberings with no further load work, to be very hard to ever top, just by moving the tuner.

Bottom line there is while you may well have good results this way, I still very much recommend normal load development before moving the tuner. They don't fix issues like a bad lot of jackets but yes, they can fix what might seem like a bad load combination, ie, too light a charge for a given condition. Hell, no different than adding a tuner to a known good bbl and load at a random setting is not likely to be the best setting but the same peak level of accuracy will always be within only a few marks away...and yes, you can get lucky because tune simply repeats, over and over.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I

And for that reason, for the majority of shooters applications (hunting, PRS), tuners do NOT work.

I never said tuners do not work, I just believe the majority who have bought them are under the false presumption that they can use them to turn any subpar shooting load into a finely tuned one.

..only on some guns?? Which ones DO they work on?

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

..only on some guns?? Which ones DO they work on?

I am by no means an expert on this topic, I am just trying to make sense of the discrepancy between AB and people who use them effectively from the information I have read on here thus far.

You are the expert, your opinion means very much. I am trying to learn with a very open mind.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I am by no means an expert on this topic, I am just trying to make sense of the discrepancy between AB and people who use them effectively from the information I have read on here thus far.

You are the expert, your opinion means very much. I am trying to learn with a very open mind.

It's all good. That was my point though, that they still work on anything and on the same principle but yes, your point about "normal" dispersion with guns that are simply not consistent enough does matter. The flip side to that is that I've tested factory ammo and seen distinct improvement, always, at the right setting vs not. Some was still terrible but better when tuned to its respective potential. Some types/lots shot well enough that I sincerely intend to take some tested good ammo to a br match and shoot it. Nope...I don't expect to win but I don't expect to be last either. It's that good...honest 1/4" moa good. I found two types that I could tune to that level out of about 30, though. I chambered this bbl in 223, at the time, because of good selection and availability. Obviously, that car is still off the tracks right now. I'll revisit it soon, hopefully. I need to be able to re test and buy what shoots best. Doesn't this sound a lot like what rimfire guys and gals have been doing for a long time now, with tuners? Hmmm. Yes, it's just like it.

 

[Curious]

From the beginning of this thread there has been two very different aspects that needed to be covered.

1. Do they work to help maintain a good tuned load?

2. Do they work to tune a load without other powder and seating depth adjustments?

We have a wealth of opinion and experience from the BR world confirming the former, this evidence is compelling. Its widely acknowledged that a tuner wont take a perfect tune to a higher level, it just enables that tune to be held during climatic changes with micro adjustments.

This then raises the question for me at least that should we really be calling these devices tuners in this application? I appreciate its just semantics but in this scenario the device isnt tuning as such, its more about maintaining the tune. I appreciate the word tuner gets used as it is a form of micro tuning and we probably dont have a better word to describe these devices in this scenario.

The problem in my eyes has arisen from the BOSS model that has then been widely followed by the likes of Eric Cortina and others with the use of these tuners in tuning from scratch either factory ammo or reloads that haven't been conventionally tuned first with powder charge and seating depth. This is the grey area Bryan Litz seems to be pulling apart.

I have seen plenty of examples where a tuner has improved the latter and also rimfire ammo but in some cases the results just dont repeat then in others they do. This is based on where exactly you are starting IME.

If the load is right in the scatter node for that barrel it will decrease in size with a tuner but the shot placement will still vary quite widely and so not main stable or repeatable groups. If on the other had the ammo starts in a happy harmonic place it will often shrink group sizes by over 50% and remain stable and repeatable.

The Cortina method of fire two shots then move the tuner is just too basic, there is so much more to it.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

From the beginning of this thread there has been two very different aspects that needed to be covered.

1. Do they work to help maintain a good tuned load?

2. Do they work to tune a load without other powder and seating depth adjustments?

We have a wealth of opinion and experience from the BR world confirming the former, this evidence is compelling. Its widely acknowledged that a tuner wont take a perfect tune to a higher level, it just enables that tune to be held during climatic changes with micro adjustments.

This then raises the question for me at least that should we really be calling these devices tuners in this application? I appreciate its just semantics but in this scenario the device isnt tuning as such, its more about maintaining the tune. I appreciate the word tuner gets used as it is a form of micro tuning and we probably dont have a better word to describe these devices in this scenario.

The problem in my eyes has arisen from the BOSS model that has then been widely followed by the likes of Eric Cortina and others with the use of these tuners in tuning from scratch either factory ammo or reloads that haven't been conventionally tuned first with powder charge and seating depth. This is the grey area Bryan Litz seems to be pulling apart.

I have seen plenty of examples where a tuner has improved the latter and also rimfire ammo but in some cases the results just dont repeat then in others they do. This is based on where exactly you are starting IME.

If the load is right in the scatter node for that barrel it will decrease in size with a tuner but the shot placement will still vary quite widely and so not main stable or repeatable groups. If on the other had the ammo starts in a happy harmonic place it will often shrink group sizes by over 50% and remain stable and repeatable.

The Cortina method of fire two shots then move the tuner is just too basic, there is so much more to it.

I use and recommend 3 shot groups but the credence of using two shot groups is that if it shoots big, it won't get smaller by firing a third, fourth and fifth shot into the group. Also, knowing what the groups should look like when a mark or two away from in tune and seeing it appear on the target, even with a two shot group has value because it is a validation of an expected result. In other words, it gives a predictable result, even if that result is a big group.

But no, I don't put much faith in a single two shot group at all. When I look at test targets, I look for predictable, repeatable group shapes for a couple of marks on either side of what appears to be a sweet spot. Again, this is validation of my setting. In essence, I'm looking at 5 three shot groups to confirm my settings...not one group.

 

[Spankey]

I' been competing some in benchrest 1000 and 600 yds .I've not been to competitive but on occasion get a relay pin at times . I was at the 1000 yd Nationals and protektor was there with some benchrest stocks . I asked Jason Danlee what he thought about the stock and he and I agreed it needed pillars and bedded .I bought the stock on my 4 hour drive home I decided to put the stock on as a cdl would have come and add a tuner just to test .I had also been talking to Larry Tolksdorf ,Jason Danlee and Mike Ezell about tunners . Larry had suggested that I purchase a Harrell's to try and add a o-ring between the two locking nuts for additional tightening without movement . I carried the stock home stuck a trued 700 action with a new lilja barrel in 300 win in the stock and did nothing but tighten the screws just as a cdl came from the factory screwed a radial Harrels brake on it loaded 74 grains of 7828 in new Winchester brass topped with Hornady 250 grain a tips . Shot one and a half inch 2 shot group at 100 yds with a speed of 2800 fps at muzzle. Did as horrible as I hoped . Unscrewed the muzzle brake screwed the tuner on set tuner to number 75 which is half the rings travel due to the addition of the o-ring mentioned above and tighten the ring up .Shot one more two shot group at one and a half inches at 100 yds . Moved the tuner toward 74 and group opened up. Moved the tuner back to 75 but with the line just off the reference line headed toward 76 and it tightened somewhat .I moved the tuner a couple of more times never getting to the number 76 and low and behold I had two shots at a hundred making one hole . I know a lot of readers are going to cringe cause nothing was done to help accuracy everything was intentionally done to hurt accuracy no stock work no load development just straight out of a loading manual and yet the tuner still shown progress in making rifle from a rifle only worthy of trading to something maybe worth investing in . My next years Panda action wheeler stock benchrest rifles barrels will have tuners going forward .

 

[dgeesaman]

I never said tuners do not work, I just believe the majority who have bought them are under the false presumption that they can use them to turn any subpar shooting load into a finely tuned one.

I see this differently on one word: ‘majority’

It seems that the majority of tuner buyers know that it’s for instant adjustment and not a set-it-and-forget-it bolt-on accuracy improvement. They use it in situations where regular tuning is required and they find the tuner to be an excellent way to make those tuning adjustments. No one turned up here and said they thought they should get something else from their tuner.

(On this site you will find many benchrest shooters with PRS as a secondary crowd. Over on the hide you might get a different response.)

Brian tested for set-it-and-forget-it results, which is not the typical use case and really shows why some accuracy disciplines should continue not using tuners. Because the shooters or their competition formats simply aren’t going to take advantage of what a tuner really does.

 

[Todd Earhart]

Mike wrote....... In other words, it gives predictable result, even if that result is a big group.
This is the key to me.
Todd