Bronze Brushes Don't Hurt Barrels.

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No problem believing that, or experience, that a 30 will do that, but with the geometry involved, and my experience, a 6mm will last nowhere that long..no matter how you clean it....imo

Later
Dave

Agreed. That was kinda my point. That being, I commonly touch up the crown on my 30s, over its lifespan but I seldom do on my 6s, simply because the crown typically outlives the throat on the 6s but not so on the 30s.

 

[D Coots]

Agreed. That was kinda my point. That being, I commonly touch up the crown on my 30s, over its lifespan but I seldom do on my 6s, simply because the crown typically outlives the throat on the 6s but not so on the 30s.

10-4. Many problems with discussion on here are people shooting many different disciplines shooting different round counts speaking many different languages of cleaning preferences. Apples to watermelons sometimes. No correlations are possible.

I'll keep doing what I see works for me in that liddle hole and on that target. You all do whatever.. .

Later
Dave

 

[Rsadams]

I have been cleaning pistols and rifles the same for about 50 years.... My grandfather's guns I inherited still shoot great.... He hunted with them etc and when he got home he would spray wd40 on it after cleaning and put it back in the gun cabinet and I assure you his cleaning method was nothing like the stuff people do now and they still look fine after 60+ years and still shoot fine.....

Now we do a whole bunch more stuff and use a bunch of different cleaners etc instead of hoppies 9 which was about all there was back then if I remember correctly.... If I shoot a gun I clean it when I get home and if pushing a bronze brush down a hard steel barrel basically at the speed of smell is killing it then bullets must be really hard on them... Of course none of these guns are 1000 yard match guns their just old Remington's Winchester etc but their still alive and kicking....Here before COVID I put a new Leupold scope on his old Remington 600 Mohawk and it put three 6mm bullets touching in a clover leaf and it's never been a safe Queen for sure...Lol there wasn't gun safes back then...

 

[Gargoyle]

What motivated you to seek to change your mind?

This issue is one of those for which I believe there is no universal agreement.

So, it comes down to who you "want" to believe or what your current cleaning process has revealed relative to being adequate to achieve your performance goals. Also, you may want to do your own testing to satisfy your question.

I've always used a bronze brush for over 50 years now. Does it harm the barrel? I don't know but I don't think so IF you observe some basic precautions. Regardless, to me it's just logical that the mechanical action of the bronze brush does a better job removing carbon than not using one. However, some of these newer carbon removers, such as Bore Tech C4 does an amazing job removing carbon even with a nylon brush. Nevertheless, I still opt for the bronze brush since the limited tests I've conducted reveals that the bronze brush does a better job.

There are a few things you should do to minimize the potential for damage in cleaning a rifle bore.

1. Use a quality rod that rotates when pushing the rod through the bore. Wipe it clean after each pass to remove any debris.

2. Use a quality rod guide of the proper size.

3. Secure the rifle so it doesn't move while pushing a rod through it. I think this is overlooked. In my experience, nothing beats clamping the barrel into a bench vice with wooden protective pads. I've seen shooters clean rifles at the range and cringe watching them trying to keep the rifle steady while aggressively pushing a rod through the bore. Even with "cradles", I've seen the rifle become unsteady as the rod is pushed through the bore. With a barrel clamped in a bench vice, you can control the rod feed and develop a smooth uniform motion.

4. If you do use a bronze brush, use one with a brass core, looped ends, the proper size, and make sure that it is straight. For smaller calibers, like the 223, make sure that the crimp on the core is not belled at the end that will catch in the throat. Yes, I've seen this latter condition on some lots of brushes. NEVER reverse the brush while in the bore or using a 'sawing" action with the brush. Yes, I've seen guys do this at the range.

5. Removing the brush after passing it through the bore is perhaps an extra precaution if you're worried about crown damage. However, if you do reverse it after exiting the muzzle, go slowly to allow the brush to align with the bore. Don't ram it against the crown - go slowly. If the rifle is held securely in a bench vice, this is much easier to accomplish. I opt for the latter approach.

If you follow these simple precautions, in my experience, you will not damage the bore or crown using a bronze brush. But ultimately, you have to think this through and make your own decision because this is one of those issues for which there is no absolute, beyond a shadow of doubt, correct answer.

I was just playing off the Louder w/Crowder experiments he used to do on his Youtube channel.
You made a very good post. Thank you!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The damage was caused by an abrasive cleaner on the bronze brush. You wont hurt a barrel with cleaning fluid on a bronze brush

 

[FrankG]

Crowns are funny...I've seen them that look great but the gun wouldn't shoot. After all the KISS stuff, a re-crown is usually my first attempt at chasing an accuracy issue. I've seen it make a HUGE difference. But then I've got this factory Savage 17HMR that shoots really good and you can look at the crown with your naked eye and see the crown is cut at a glaringly obvious angle! Go figure! I'm not sure how they could even do one that bad! I haven't fixed it because I'm not sure it can shoot much better than it already does. Lol!

The one picture is some of the damaged crowns that we see. The other picture and this isn't a bad barrel damaged wise but this guy told us flat out he is spinning the cleaning rod in the bore attached to a cordless drill. This one isn't as bad as some we've seen. I think what is helping this one is that it has 5R rifling. We've seen conventional rifling with having that 90 degree angle on the sides of the lands....the edges of the lands looks like someone took a ice pick to the edges and beat the hell out of it.

I won't name the shooter....but a few years ago the shooter wrecked a few barrels. Claimed we had bad steel. Then it shifted to the gunsmith was using a dull reamer to chamber the barrels. The smith was at the next match and caught him red handed with a cordless drill on high with a dowel/rod chucked into it with emery cloth or something of the sort on the end of it. He asked him...what are you doing? He said he was trying clean out the carbon ring in the throat area. By doing this it looked like a dull reamer cut the chamber and was leaving heavy burrs on the sides of the lands/smearing the metal. Gunsmith called me from the match and told me what happen and that we we're both off the hook. It was operator induced!

 

[rijndael]

I won't name the shooter....but a few years ago the shooter wrecked a few barrels. Claimed we had bad steel. Then it shifted to the gunsmith was using a dull reamer to chamber the barrels. The smith was at the next match and caught him red handed with a cordless drill on high with a dowel/rod chucked into it with emery cloth or something of the sort on the end of it.

Some customers aren't worth the hassle.

 

[FrankG]

10-4. Many problems with discussion on here are people shooting many different disciplines shooting different round counts speaking many different languages of cleaning preferences. Apples to watermelons sometimes. No correlations are possible.

I'll keep doing what I see works for me in that liddle hole and on that target. You all do whatever.. .

Later
Dave

That's what I said in one of my posts Dave.

If you have a cleaning procedure you use and your not wrecking anything....I've got nothing to say.

Just because the guy next to you cleans differently....doesn't mean he's doing it better than you!

I've been at matches where I've seen guys cleaning the barrels like they where trying to unclog a plugged up toilet.

Or you see guys cleaning they're guns at a match and the wind is blowing so hard you can feel the fine dust/gravel hitting your skin. I asked a guy one time when this was happening... "Why are you cleaning the gun now?" He said, "well the barrel is fouling so bad that I cannot get thru the whole day of shooting with out cleaning it.". I said, "Bud...the barrel is done. It gave you everything it had if that's the case. Pull it off and put a new stick on it! With all the dirt flying around and your putting solvent on patches the brush etc...you cleaning is acting like a magnet with all the dirt in the air...you might as well be pouring gravel down the dam bore!"

 

[FrankG]

Hi Frank

You folks provide several commericial bullet producers with test barrels. Do you have any idea as to what their cleaning procedures are? Annoyumous of course.

Later
Dave

Hey Dave! Believe it or not they all seem to do it a little different as far as the type of cleaners they use etc...some use brushes on a regular basis and some only when they see the need to but the main thing that I've heard is none of them will use a brush with an abrasive cleaner at the same time. Some will use JB Bore Compound (not the bore brite) as well.

The other thing we've talked about and you will hear of guys doing...is plugging the bore of the barrel and filling it with CLR or just coating the bore really heavy and leaving it sit.

I ran a test here earlier last year with two different barrels and using CLR. First barrel was a blued chrome moly steel barrel. Got the bore good and wet and let it sit over night. Not only did it start to strip the bluing but it pitted/etched the bore.

Then I did it to a stainless steel barrel. After 24 hours I couldn't see any harm at all but then I let the barrel sit for like 3 or 5 days. Think it was 5 days. Sure enough it started to etch the bore.

You bet ya it was taking the carbon out of the bore. I agree with what I seen there but it goes back to..we don't have control over how one guy does his cleaning to the next. So I posted on Snipershide forum that if you clean the barrel with CLR and you end up damaging it...don't call us. I will not warranty it. There are things just beyond our control.

Later, Frank

 

[jackieschmidt]

10-4. Many problems with discussion on here are people shooting many different disciplines shooting different round counts speaking many different languages of cleaning preferences. Apples to watermelons sometimes. No correlations are possible.

I'll keep doing what I see works for me in that liddle hole and on that target. You all do whatever.. .

Later
Dave

^^^^^^^
Dave, as anal as I am about my 6PPC barrels, the 1-17 and 1-18 twist 30 caliber barrels I use in Score seem to defy all of the rules.

I can shoot an entire Grand Agg without cleaning, and upon cleaning, they come clean with an amazing lack of effort.

I don’t know if it is the larger diameter or the slow twist that accounts for this.

 

[Gargoyle]

This has been quite an informative thread by all the great responses.

My take aways are:

1. Get bronze brushes with brass core like the Deweys
2. Let the chemicals do more work than the brush
3. Chill on the abrasives, if use at all.
4. Keep on the carbon ring
5. Clean the brush before reversing the brush across the crown, or just remove brush once out the end
6. Get some Boretech eliminator or Free All
7. Bronze wool experiments

My further questions:

1. Is a carbon fiber rod that erodes away when it touches metal still doing damage to the bore?
2. 20ge or 12ga brush spinning on a short rod with drill to get carbon ring?
3. Where did the never clean philosophy come from?

 

[Ccrider]

What is considered an “abrasive” cleaner?

 

[butchlambert]

I would never use a carbon fiber cleaning rod!

 

[K22]

I was just playing off the Louder w/Crowder experiments he used to do on his Youtube channel.
You made a very good post. Thank you!

There's nothing wrong with creating a debate on controversial issues. It makes for great fun reading all the opinions especially if you're an old fart and retired with a lot of free time on your hands.

I just hope that new shooters / reloaders don't get caught up in all the minutia of theoretical debates regarding some fairly simple concepts i.e., cleaning a rifle and reloading cartridges. It doesn't have to be an MIT graduate thesis for the average shooter - you just need to observe a few commonsense practices. Remember, it's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun.

With that said, we all should be open to new ideas and technology and be willing to learn. I just like to verify that premises have an actual effect on performance. With regards to performance, I've learned that the biggest variable is me, the shooter once I have a proven load and decent equipment.

 

[FrankG]

^^^^^^^
Dave, as anal as I am about my 6PPC barrels, the 1-17 and 1-18 twist 30 caliber barrels I use in Score seem to defy all of the rules.

I can shoot an entire Grand Agg without cleaning, and upon cleaning, they come clean with an amazing lack of effort.

I don’t know if it is the larger diameter or the slow twist that accounts for this.

Jackie, Bore size vs. case capacity. 308win is almost the ideal case size for bore capacity and in your case going smaller and shooting a 30BR type case..your burning even less powder. It's just easier on everything.

I judge my F class guns barrels, hi power, or a PRS type guns barrel as this...it needs to go a min of 100 or so rounds and hold accuracy. If the barrel won't make it a 100 rounds and taking into consideration the round count on it that it could be done. Barrel could hold accuracy for say 50 rounds but if your putting a min. of 60 to a 120 rounds on a day on it...it's not gonna make it anymore for a match gun. Good for practice and small club matches probably.

Later, Frank

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The one picture is some of the damaged crowns that we see. The other picture and this isn't a bad barrel damaged wise but this guy told us flat out he is spinning the cleaning rod in the bore attached to a cordless drill. This one isn't as bad as some we've seen. I think what is helping this one is that it has 5R rifling. We've seen conventional rifling with having that 90 degree angle on the sides of the lands....the edges of the lands looks like someone took a ice pick to the edges and beat the hell out of it.

I won't name the shooter....but a few years ago the shooter wrecked a few barrels. Claimed we had bad steel. Then it shifted to the gunsmith was using a dull reamer to chamber the barrels. The smith was at the next match and caught him red handed with a cordless drill on high with a dowel/rod chucked into it with emery cloth or something of the sort on the end of it. He asked him...what are you doing? He said he was trying clean out the carbon ring in the throat area. By doing this it looked like a dull reamer cut the chamber and was leaving heavy burrs on the sides of the lands/smearing the metal. Gunsmith called me from the match and told me what happen and that we we're both off the hook. It was operator induced!

I've seen that type of crown damage a few times. The second pic is more interesting. It appears that there are two marks going opposite of bullet travel. They appear pretty insignificant in the pic but whether they are or not, the question remains..how did they get there?
That brings up another question that I'm sure you can help with.
With so many borescopes out there nowadays, are you seeing any damaged barrels from misuse of the borescopes?

Thanks!--Mike

 

[FrankG]

What is considered an “abrasive” cleaner?

I'll probably get crucified a little for this and I'm not hammering on a company or anyone....this is my opinion from what I've seen...

Iosso, KG2 bore paste, witch's brew, JB borebrite, valve lapping compounds etc...

Again the biggest no no is using an abrasive type cleaner in conjunction with a brush. You do that and I'll say your on borrowed time.

 

[FrankG]

I've seen that type of crown damage a few times. The second pic is more interesting. It appears that there are two marks going opposite of bullet travel. They appear pretty insignificant in the pic but whether they are or not, the question remains..how did they get there?
That brings up another question that I'm sure you can help with.
With so many borescopes out there nowadays, are you seeing any damaged barrels from misuse of the borescopes?

Thanks!--Mike

Hard to say on damage from bore scopes...the only thing I can say is be careful.

I've seen my fair share of barrels where guys pushed gauge pins down the bores and they either get them stuck or even if they don't get them stuck...the score the tops of the lands.

Guys pounding on cleaning rods and I'll throw in there...using multi piece cleaning rods...getting bore snakes (which I really don't like for different reasons as well) stuck in the barrels and then things get damaged trying to get them out.

I'll give you a good one on the gauge pins. It wasn't one or two but try like a couple hundred barrels we made for a customer. I get a phone call saying as they are finish machining the barrels the bores are tightening/closing up. I said what? They felt it was stress in the material. I said if that was the case then the bores should be opening up most likely but not getting tighter. I'll say no way but let's throw Murphy's law into this and say it happened.

Keep in mind here we sent an inspection report for every single barrel (you all have seen our barrels and we stamp them with a s/n). The inspection report gave the measurements for the bore and groove size to the 4th decimal place.

So I asked them to send me a couple and if they had some that where not finished machined to send a couple of those back as well so we can look at everything. So we get them in and right away I notice on the barrels that had work done to them...all of the bores (tops of the lands) where scored and some pretty heavily. The scoring was so heavy....that's why the bores tightened up. Nothing changed on the grooves. By the grooves not changing I know it's not a stress situation. If the bore is going to change the groove will as well. The barrels that had no work done to them looked same as when they left here. So I called them up and asked how where they setting them up for finish work and or where they checking the bores some how? Sure enough it came out that they where putting gauge pins down the bores to check them for size. I said, "guys why are you doing that!!!" We sent an inspection report along for all of them. If you want to spot check one here or there I get it but all of them? I told them to never do that again.

 

[jackieschmidt]

This has been quite an informative thread by all the great responses.

My take aways are:

1. Get bronze brushes with brass core like the Deweys
2. Let the chemicals do more work than the brush
3. Chill on the abrasives, if use at all.
4. Keep on the carbon ring
5. Clean the brush before reversing the brush across the crown, or just remove brush once out the end
6. Get some Boretech eliminator or Free All
7. Bronze wool experiments

My further questions:

1. Is a carbon fiber rod that erodes away when it touches metal still doing damage to the bore?
2. 20ge or 12ga brush spinning on a short rod with drill to get carbon ring?
3. Where did the never clean philosophy come from?

“Where did the never clean philosophy come from”
At this years TackDriver11, Wayne France, who won the score portion of the event, told me that he never cleans a barrel. He does, however, use coated bullets. His chamber is a 30WW, which (I think) is a 30BR with the shoulder moved forward for a little more capacity. I might be wrong on this.

I thought he was pulling my leg about the cleaning, but others have since confirmed this.

 

[JFrank]

Don’t scare me you guys…I used losso in conjunction once with the ‘nylon brush’ they recommend applying a small amount. I made iirc about 10 -20 passes on a barrel I shot at the Nat’s with about 1100 rounds on it, it definitely improved the groups at the time however I did pull the barrel for a future shoot.

Hope it’s still good..
Jim