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Bronze Brushes Don't Hurt Barrels.

Tommie said:
And this is where I get confused. A bronze brush is completely safe for the bore but can damage the crown if the brush is pulled back through. Same steel, different results. What am I missing?

Forum Boss: on exit the spines in the brush are pointed down, having passed outward. When you reverse the brush, the points of the brush spines drive right on to the edge of the crown. I've inspected this with magnification and a damaged crown showed an edge that looked like sharks teeth.

View attachment 1319359

Also it just makes sense to clean the brush before dragging it back in. This may add a minute or two to your routine. And if you clean while the barrel is warm you may well find you can get by with 4-5 wet patches followed by very, very few brush strokes.
Click to expand...
Yep I get it. Thanks. So then my mind went to the opposite end of the barrel. Is the same cutting/wearing action happening at the leade or throat as the brush is being pushed forward and bristles are being bent down?
This is interesting stuff. Thanks again!
 
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I think the point that some are making here is that a clean bronze brush is very unlikely to hurt anything, but once you push it through the dirty barrel, it collects abrasive. Dragging that same brush, now embedded with abrasive, can and will wear the crown edge and possibly areas all down the bore. Same goes for using an abrasive cleaner on a brush. I think this applies to both bronze and nylon. It's not the brush, but the abrasive that does the damage. Well, that and some pretty crazy cleaning techniques. I have good barrel life with my method and I do use a bronze brush, but with some common sense, too. A real testament is to view a high mileage 30BR or 30 Major. Those things can have remarkable barrel life, if properly cared for. I've had 30 Major barrels that were winning matches with 10K plus rounds on them and none have ever looked anything like Frank's picture. I do pull the brush back across the crown but I have seen that cause some wear at the edge, so I do recrown periodically. Particularly on the small 30's, where they shoot and shoot. That said, I soak the bore and brush with Kroil or Ed's red, then just a couple of brush strokes to score the carbon, letting the chemical get under it and do its thing. I go after the majority of the carbon first, then switch to a better copper solvent on a patch from there on out. The idea ultimately being to minimize how many times any rod(brush or patch attached) has to be put through the barrel. IME, every rod comes into contact with the bore, regardless of how well made the rod guide is...especiall on longer barrels. It only has to flex a few thou to touch. And keep that rod clean, too..Same reason.
 
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gunsandgunsmithing said:
I think the point that some are making here is that a clean bronze brush is very unlikely to hurt anything, but once you push it through the dirty barrel, it collects abrasive. Dragging that same brush, now embedded with abrasive, can and will wear the crown edge and possibly areas all down the bore. Same goes for using an abrasive cleaner on a brush. I think this applies to both bronze and nylon. It's not the brush, but the abrasive that does the damage. Well, that and some pretty crazy cleaning techniques. I have good barrel life with my method and I do use a bronze brush, but with some common sense, too. A real testament is to view a high mileage 30BR or 30 Major. Those things can have remarkable barrel life, if properly cared for. I've had 30 Major barrels that were winning matches with 10K plus rounds on them and none have ever looked anything like Frank's picture. I do pull the brush back across the crown but I have seen that cause some wear at the edge, so I do recrown periodically. Particularly on the small 30's, where they shoot and shoot. That said, I soak the bore and brush with Kroil or Ed's red, then just a couple of brush strokes to score the carbon, letting the chemical get under it and do its thing. I go after the majority of the carbon first, then switch to a better copper solvent on a patch from there on out. The idea ultimately being to minimize how many times any rod(brush or patch attached) has to be put through the barrel. IME, every rod comes into contact with the bore, regardless of how well made the rod guide is. It only has to flex a few thou to touch. And keep that rod clean, too..Same reason.
Click to expand...
Many years ago, I came to the same conclusion and from that time forward I have used solvent and patches, short stroked throughout the length of the barrel, until I saw no more improvement, before brushing. I only want to use the brush for the fouling that patches and solvent cannot remove. Also, I have done the great majority of my cleaning at the range, usually with no more than 30 or so shots between cleaning. I never run my rod out of the muzzle any farther than it takes for the jag to clear, so that the patch falls off, or more than a half inch past the back of a brush's bristles. I take particular care when drawing either the jag or the brush back in, because I know if you hit steel hard enough with brass it might deform at the corner of a land. Looking at how others clean, I think that I have been a lot more careful than most. Most tools can be misused. I do my best not to.
 
One thing that gets left out is what we are cleaning. Something like a 30BR is not going to lay down the carbon a 300 lapua improved is. Even different powders in the similar burn rates lay down different amounts. So if your getting little to no carbon build up then maybe you can just use patches. But if you are getting carbon build up, you better change something.
 
Alex Wheeler said:
One thing that gets left out is what we are cleaning. Something like a 30BR is not going to lay down the carbon a 300 lapua improved is. Even different powders in the similar burn rates lay down different amounts. So if your getting little to no carbon build up then maybe you can just use patches. But if you are getting carbon build up, you better change something.
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Alex brings up another good point.

A 308win is different than a 300 Norma....

Or a 6BR vs a 6 Creedmoor

Or a 308win vs a 6.5 Creedmoor.

Same bore size but much larger case capacity....your burning more charcoal as the example of 308 win and the 300 Norma or a 300WM etc...

Keep with the 308win here for a second and basically same case capacity but reduce the bore size to 6.5CM or a 243win etc...by reducing the bore size you basically have turned it into a magnum round.

Also some types of powder are dirtier than others.

A lot of variables to contend with.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
I think the point that some are making here is that a clean bronze brush is very unlikely to hurt anything, but once you push it through the dirty barrel, it collects abrasive. Dragging that same brush, now embedded with abrasive, can and will wear the crown edge and possibly areas all down the bore. Same goes for using an abrasive cleaner on a brush. I think this applies to both bronze and nylon. It's not the brush, but the abrasive that does the damage. Well, that and some pretty crazy cleaning techniques. I have good barrel life with my method and I do use a bronze brush, but with some common sense, too. A real testament is to view a high mileage 30BR or 30 Major. Those things can have remarkable barrel life, if properly cared for. I've had 30 Major barrels that were winning matches with 10K plus rounds on them and none have ever looked anything like Frank's picture. I do pull the brush back across the crown but I have seen that cause some wear at the edge, so I do recrown periodically. Particularly on the small 30's, where they shoot and shoot. That said, I soak the bore and brush with Kroil or Ed's red, then just a couple of brush strokes to score the carbon, letting the chemical get under it and do its thing. I go after the majority of the carbon first, then switch to a better copper solvent on a patch from there on out. The idea ultimately being to minimize how many times any rod(brush or patch attached) has to be put through the barrel. IME, every rod comes into contact with the bore, regardless of how well made the rod guide is...especiall on longer barrels. It only has to flex a few thou to touch. And keep that rod clean, too..Same reason.
Click to expand...
You bring up some good points as well. Paying attention to what you are doing. Pay attention to the gun. It will tell you what is going on in most cases....you just have to learn how to read it.

I've got plenty of barrels back from ammo makers / bullet makers here. I've had several wire edm cut in half for show and tell pieces and teaching classes. Mostly 308win and a couple of .50cal and a 338 Lapua as well as a few 6.5 Creedmoor test barrels.

Like you said none of them look like that attached picture I use a lot.

The 308win test barrels I have here have 10k plus rounds on them. One got pulled from service at over 14k rounds and up to that round count when the barrels got pulled from service was giving them 1/2moa or better. They got pulled when they would no longer hold that.

Not a single ammo place or bullet maker place and I could go down the list have done anything like that to wreck a barrel. They have a cleaning procedure they use and follow and to my knowledge none use a brush and an abrasive cleaner at the same time.

If I remember I'll bring in my flash drive I have at home. I have some pic's of muzzle crowns and the damage they have. Just by retouching up the crown you can bring the accuracy back as well. It's not always that the barrel is shot out.
 
FrankG said:
You bring up some good points as well. Paying attention to what you are doing. Pay attention to the gun. It will tell you what is going on in most cases....you just have to learn how to read it.

I've got plenty of barrels back from ammo makers / bullet makers here. I've had several wire edm cut in half for show and tell pieces and teaching classes. Mostly 308win and a couple of .50cal and a 338 Lapua as well as a few 6.5 Creedmoor test barrels.

Like you said none of them look like that attached picture I use a lot.

The 308win test barrels I have here have 10k plus rounds on them. One got pulled from service at over 14k rounds and up to that round count when the barrels got pulled from service was giving them 1/2moa or better. They got pulled when they would no longer hold that.

Not a single ammo place or bullet maker place and I could go down the list have done anything like that to wreck a barrel. They have a cleaning procedure they use and follow and to my knowledge none use a brush and an abrasive cleaner at the same time.

If I remember I'll bring in my flash drive I have at home. I have some pic's of muzzle crowns and the damage they have. Just by retouching up the crown you can bring the accuracy back as well. It's not always that the barrel is shot out.
Click to expand...
Crowns are funny...I've seen them that look great but the gun wouldn't shoot. After all the KISS stuff, a re-crown is usually my first attempt at chasing an accuracy issue. I've seen it make a HUGE difference. But then I've got this factory Savage 17HMR that shoots really good and you can look at the crown with your naked eye and see the crown is cut at a glaringly obvious angle! Go figure! I'm not sure how they could even do one that bad! I haven't fixed it because I'm not sure it can shoot much better than it already does. Lol!
 
I gently pull the brush in to the crown upon exit, have 60x magnifier, examine frequently. I cut a journal on the end of the muzzle as an aid to indicate the barrel in and re crown when necessary. A Re Crown does not happen often.

Yanking that rod back and forth like a wild man beating a bad dog will do some horrible things in a bore.

Recently, quite a few of us are wrapping Fine Grade of Bronze wool in a worn brush to remove hard carbon, and this has not shown any scratching in the leade angle nor rounding of the lands. Hard Carbon can be tough to get out. Free All actually is a very advanced penetrating oil that has a unique chemical in it that will attack carbon.

After normal cleaning with bronze bristle brushes, and you still find hard carbon, 4 loose patches with Free All, then scrub with a worn brush that has Fine Grade of Bronze Wool wound in the bristles, soaked with Free All will get a LOT of hard carbon out of the barrel. I have found that 40 strokes on a worn brush wound with Fine Bronze Wool, dry patch out, then check the carbon level, then repeat and you may have to wind more Bronze wool in the brush as it compacts.

I have most of the abrasives on the market today and also make my own out of various grades of Al Oxide and honing oil. I found that the use of any abrasive is a last resort kind of issue, but the Fine bronze wool wound in a worn bronze bristle brush is a real game changer. I use nothing but the finest barrels on the market, and my Hawkeye bore scope works pretty darn good in seeing bore surface finish, rounded lands, pits, and cracks.

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I have great pitty for the guys that only clean with patches, however, bore scopes tell all with clean patches not being an True indicator of the amount of carbon in the barrel.

Carbon left in a barrel adheres to other carbon on future rounds fired like Gorilla Glue, with no constant value on the amount of carbon left in the barrel.
 
I would venture a guess that nobody cleans barrels more than Short Range Group Shooters.

The vast majority, myself included, literally clean after each group.

We use bronze brushes. We pull it both ways through the bore. I have not put anything in a barrel ibut Butches Bore Shine since Butch came up with the formula years ago.

The only time my 6PPC barrels start to degrade is when, after so many rounds, the throat starts to erode. Then, I set it back to establish a new throat and start over.

Now, I can give you first hand experience as to how a particular cleaning method can destroy a barrels accuracy. AndI see shooters do it often.That being, letting that rod lay on the bottom portion of that barrel for a long distance with a long stroke After the brush or jag clears the barrel.

Years ago, I chambered a barrel for a friend that was a screamer. Instant success. But after about three matches, it stopped shooting.

I noticed that he was using really long strokes while cleaning, letting that Dewey rod lay on that bore fore six or so inches.

I looked at the barrel with a magnifying glass and told him to take it off and bring it to me. I chucked it up, and sure enough, for about 1/2 inch in, that barrel had had about a .0005 “trough” wore in the bottom.

I cut about one inch off, recrowned it, and it returned to it’s former glory.

So, my best tip for cleaning is don’t worry about properly used bronze brushes hurting a barrel, and avoid using concoctions that have a skull and cross bones on the bottle.

Use a good bore guide and stop that darned rod the instant it clears the bore.

Now, this works for us in short range. Disciplines where you are not allowed to clean because of the Format, that is a different game.
 
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jackieschmidt said:
I would venture a guess that nobody cleans barrels more than Short Ange Group Shooters.

The vast majority, myself included, literally clean after each group.

We use bronze brushes. We pull it both ways through the bore. I have not put anything in a barrel ibut Butches Bore Shine since Butch came up with the formula years ago.

The only time my 6PPC barrels start to degrade is when, after so many rounds, the throat starts to erode. Then, I set it back to establish a new throat and start over.

Now, I can give you first hand experience as to how a particular cleaning method can destroy a barrels accuracy. AndI see shooters do it often.That being, letting that rod lay on the bottom portion of that barrel for a long distance with a long stroke.

Years ago, I chambered a barrel for a friend that was a screamer. Instant success. But after about three matches, it stopped shooting.

I noticed that he was using really long strokes while cleaning, letting that Dewey rod lay on that bore fore six or so inches.

I looked at the barrel with a magnifying glass and told him to take it off and bring it to me. I chucked it up, and sure enough, for about 1/2 inch in, that barrel had had about a .0005 “trough” wore in the bottom.

I cut about one inch off, recrowned it, and it returned to it’s former glory.

So, my best tip for cleaning is don’t worry about properly used bronze brushes hurting a barrel, or using concoctions that have a skull and cross bones on the bottle.

Use a good bore guide and stop that darned rod the instant it clears the bore.
Click to expand...
This is exactly right but ill add get a good bronze brush, with brass core. And make sure its not bigger than the rod right in front of the threads- thats the biggest issue i see
 
Gargoyle said:
Change my mind...
Click to expand...
What motivated you to seek to change your mind?

This issue is one of those for which I believe there is no universal agreement.

So, it comes down to who you "want" to believe or what your current cleaning process has revealed relative to being adequate to achieve your performance goals. Also, you may want to do your own testing to satisfy your question.

I've always used a bronze brush for over 50 years now. Does it harm the barrel? I don't know but I don't think so IF you observe some basic precautions. Regardless, to me it's just logical that the mechanical action of the bronze brush does a better job removing carbon than not using one. However, some of these newer carbon removers, such as Bore Tech C4 does an amazing job removing carbon even with a nylon brush. Nevertheless, I still opt for the bronze brush since the limited tests I've conducted reveals that the bronze brush does a better job.

There are a few things you should do to minimize the potential for damage in cleaning a rifle bore.

1. Use a quality rod that rotates when pushing the rod through the bore. Wipe it clean after each pass to remove any debris.

2. Use a quality rod guide of the proper size.

3. Secure the rifle so it doesn't move while pushing a rod through it. I think this is overlooked. In my experience, nothing beats clamping the barrel into a bench vice with wooden protective pads. I've seen shooters clean rifles at the range and cringe watching them trying to keep the rifle steady while aggressively pushing a rod through the bore. Even with "cradles", I've seen the rifle become unsteady as the rod is pushed through the bore. With a barrel clamped in a bench vice, you can control the rod feed and develop a smooth uniform motion.

4. If you do use a bronze brush, use one with a brass core, looped ends, the proper size, and make sure that it is straight. For smaller calibers, like the 223, make sure that the crimp on the core is not belled at the end that will catch in the throat. Yes, I've seen this latter condition on some lots of brushes. NEVER reverse the brush while in the bore or using a 'sawing" action with the brush. Yes, I've seen guys do this at the range.

5. Removing the brush after passing it through the bore is perhaps an extra precaution if you're worried about crown damage. However, if you do reverse it after exiting the muzzle, go slowly to allow the brush to align with the bore. Don't ram it against the crown - go slowly. If the rifle is held securely in a bench vice, this is much easier to accomplish. I opt for the latter approach.

If you follow these simple precautions, in my experience, you will not damage the bore or crown using a bronze brush. But ultimately, you have to think this through and make your own decision because this is one of those issues for which there is no absolute, beyond a shadow of doubt, correct answer.
 
FrankG said:
You bring up some good points as well. Paying attention to what you are doing. Pay attention to the gun. It will tell you what is going on in most cases....you just have to learn how to read it.

I've got plenty of barrels back from ammo makers / bullet makers here. I've had several wire edm cut in half for show and tell pieces and teaching classes. Mostly 308win and a couple of .50cal and a 338 Lapua as well as a few 6.5 Creedmoor test barrels.

Like you said none of them look like that attached picture I use a lot.

The 308win test barrels I have here have 10k plus rounds on them. One got pulled from service at over 14k rounds and up to that round count when the barrels got pulled from service was giving them 1/2moa or better. They got pulled when they would no longer hold that.

Not a single ammo place or bullet maker place and I could go down the list have done anything like that to wreck a barrel. They have a cleaning procedure they use and follow and to my knowledge none use a brush and an abrasive cleaner at the same time.

If I remember I'll bring in my flash drive I have at home. I have some pic's of muzzle crowns and the damage they have. Just by retouching up the crown you can bring the accuracy back as well. It's not always that the barrel is shot out.
Click to expand...
Hi Frank

You folks provide several commericial bullet producers with test barrels. Do you have any idea as to what their cleaning procedures are? Annoyumous of course.

Later
Dave
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
I think the point that some are making here is that a clean bronze brush is very unlikely to hurt anything, but once you push it through the dirty barrel, it collects abrasive. Dragging that same brush, now embedded with abrasive, can and will wear the crown edge and possibly areas all down the bore. Same goes for using an abrasive cleaner on a brush. I think this applies to both bronze and nylon. It's not the brush, but the abrasive that does the damage. Well, that and some pretty crazy cleaning techniques. I have good barrel life with my method and I do use a bronze brush, but with some common sense, too. A real testament is to view a high mileage 30BR or 30 Major. Those things can have remarkable barrel life, if properly cared for. I've had 30 Major barrels that were winning matches with 10K plus rounds on them and none have ever looked anything like Frank's picture. I do pull the brush back across the crown but I have seen that cause some wear at the edge, so I do recrown periodically. Particularly on the small 30's, where they shoot and shoot. That said, I soak the bore and brush with Kroil or Ed's red, then just a couple of brush strokes to score the carbon, letting the chemical get under it and do its thing. I go after the majority of the carbon first, then switch to a better copper solvent on a patch from there on out. The idea ultimately being to minimize how many times any rod(brush or patch attached) has to be put through the barrel. IME, every rod comes into contact with the bore, regardless of how well made the rod guide is...especiall on longer barrels. It only has to flex a few thou to touch. And keep that rod clean, too..Same reason.
Click to expand...
No problem believing that, or experience that a 30 will do that, but with the geometry involved, and my experience, a 6mm will last nowhere that long..no matter how you clean it....imo

Later
Dave
 
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