Barrel tuners

[Shooter13]

@gunsandgunsmithing knows that even though you explain everything on the adjustment of a tuner and what to do with it there are still some that won't listen and do it "their way", I've seen guys on the line take an oil filter wrench to move the tuner!! It doesn't need to be that tight. Another useful thing is to do the tuner test and see the shape of the shots (using 3 shot groups) moving the tuner 1 mark each time, it amazed me to see what it really did! Takes a fairly calm day but you can see it very plainly. I've used one for 3 years now and still learning but can always shoot a text to Mike with a picture and ask "okay, what's it doing?"

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

@gunsandgunsmithing knows that even though you explain everything on the adjustment of a tuner and what to do with it there are still some that won't listen and do it "their way", I've seen guys on the line take an oil filter wrench to move the tuner!! It doesn't need to be that tight. Another useful thing is to do the tuner test and see the shape of the shots (using 3 shot groups) moving the tuner 1 mark each time, it amazed me to see what it really did! Takes a fairly calm day but you can see it very plainly. I've used one for 3 years now and still learning but can always shoot a text to Mike with a picture and ask "okay, what's it doing?"

Spot on!

 

[Ruger15151]

This

EC Tuner V2 | Cortina Precision

Over a decade ago, I introduced the original EC Tuner. The EC Tuner provided an easy and efficient way to adjust your tuner because it was a tool less design. The original EC Tuner uses tension screws to create enough drag that the tuner will stay put after adjusting, but still allows the user...

www.shootsmallgroups.com

 

[Straightshooter1]

Any recommendations for a barrel tuner for a 6BR? What are you people using and what are the expected results? Is it worth it to use one or in the 6BR accurate enough?

I just recently got Bryan Litz new book Modern Advancements In Long Range Shooting, Volume III where he has an extensive chapter aboaut testing to see how much difference a tuner might help. I was really looking forward to confirmation, but not so. What he found was that some of the tuner's adjustments that indicated was best turn out to be worst in subsequent rounds of shooting and some of the worst later showed as the best. Over 1800 rounds fired across 4 different rifles and 4 different tuners, he concludes (to quote him):

"Marketing claims about the effectiveness of tuners in improving baseline mechanical precision of rifles were not substantiated by our testing."

Something he did see in his data that he found interesting (me too) was that the weight of the tuner seems to have some effect rather than the dialed distances, which is something he may address at a later date.

 

[Titan]

I just recently got Bryan Litz new book Modern Advancements In Long Range Shooting, Volume III where he has an extensive chapter aboaut testing to see how much difference a tune might help. I was really looking forward to confirmation, but not so. What he found was that some of the tuner's adjustments that indicated was best turn out to be worst in subsequent rounds of shooting and some of the worst later showed as the best. Over 1800 rounds fired across 4 different rifles and 4 different tuners, he concludes (to quote him):

"Marketing claims about the effectiveness of tuners in improving baseline mechanical precision of rifles were not substantiated by our testing."

Something he did see in his data that he found interesting (me too) was that the weight of the tuner seems to have some effect rather than the dialed distances, which is something he may address at a later date.

I am sure the manufacturers of the industry's best tuners will supply their customer with thousands of rounds of live fire data clearly demonstrating the improvements to groups size in a repeatable and statistically significant sample size...

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I just recently got Bryan Litz new book Modern Advancements In Long Range Shooting, Volume III where he has an extensive chapter aboaut testing to see how much difference a tune might help. I was really looking forward to confirmation, but not so. What he found was that some of the tuner's adjustments that indicated was best turn out to be worst in subsequent rounds of shooting and some of the worst later showed as the best. Over 1800 rounds fired across 4 different rifles and 4 different tuners, he concludes (to quote him):

"Marketing claims about the effectiveness of tuners in improving baseline mechanical precision of rifles were not substantiated by our testing."

Something he did see in his data that he found interesting (me too) was that the weight of the tuner seems to have some effect rather than the dialed distances, which is something he may address at a later date.

I respect Bryan and his work but I question his results for a few reasons. One of which is in your post, where you quoted him as saying "over 1800 rounds fired, in 4 different rifles and 4 different tuners.?
Off the top of my head, that's roughly 110 rounds per setup. I'm sorry, but I have more significant practice sessions than that, just for kicks.
As I find out more and more details of his test, the more issues I see with his methodology and processes.

This seems beneath him in terms statistical significance and actual testing. But if the intended result was to draw lots of interest in his new book, I think he did a fine job.

 

[Titan]

I respect Bryan and his work but I question his results for a few reasons. One of which is in your post, where you quoted him as saying "over 1800 rounds fired, in 4 different rifles and 4 different tuners.?
Off the top of my head, that's roughly 110 rounds per setup. I'm sorry, but I have more significant practice sessions than that, just for kicks.
As I find out more and more details of his test, the more issues I see with his methodology and processes.

This seems beneath him in terms statistical significance and actual testing. But if the intended result was to draw lots of interest in his new book, I think he did a fine job.

From chapter 4 round count and test setup are as follows:
22lr 800+ rounds with a ATS tuner,
.308 f tr rifle 1 575 rounds Cortina tuner, .308 f tr rifle #2 DSB Fabrication 150 rounds, 6mm Dasher ATS XL tuner 300 rounds + 200 rounds with 4 different muzzle device configurations. So 1225 center fire and 800 rim fire. Vol 3 is a fun read, some other reloading sacred cows are slaughtered.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

From chapter 4 round count and test setup are as follows:
22lr 800+ rounds with a ATS tuner,
.308 f tr rifle 1 575 rounds Cortina tuner, .308 f tr rifle #2 DSB Fabrication 150 rounds, 6mm Dasher ATS XL tuner 300 rounds + 200 rounds with 4 different muzzle device configurations. So 1225 center fire and 800 rim fire. Vol 3 is a fun read, some other reloading sacred cows are slaughtered.

Ok, so 1075 of 1225 rounds on two rifles, with two tuners..not on same rifles, and 4 tuner configurations of one of the two tuners?
Please elaborate on "tuner configurations". Also, what distance, how'd they shoot before and after tuners? More questions than answers to this point.

I have extensive experience with tuners, including vibration analysis testing and many, many, many thousands of rounds testing since 2008.

No cows have been slaughtered here yet but he is getting attention from it.

 

[R.Morehouse]

If my initial load with the tuner on is dialed in and shooting a hole, I can start moving the tuner in one (either) direction using 3 shot groups and watch the gun go out then back in tune then out then in again. Very predictable with my 6ppc and 30 Major. They really are a fun tool to play with and are very predictable with some practice. I have not shot thousands of rounds through them to have my findings, there was no need to.

Regards
Rick

 

[Titan]

Ok, so 1075 of 1225 rounds on two rifles, with two tuners..not on same rifles, and 4 tuner configurations of one of the two tuners?
Please elaborate on "tuner configurations". Also, what distance, how'd they shoot before and after tuners? More questions than answers to this point.

I have extensive experience with tuners, including vibration analysis testing and many, many, many thousands of rounds testing since 2008.

No cows have been slaughtered here yet but he is getting attention from it.

I am not going to reprint the entire chapter, in short he fired the center fire rifles at 100 yards groups of 5, fired 5 shot groups and adjusted the tuner per manufacturers recommendations, repeated this 3 times to see if the results (improvements to avg accuracy) and the best settings would reproduce (they did not, with any of the rifles or tuners) did a course sweep 1/2 turn through the entire tuners range five shot groups back and forth 3 times to see if any of the positions had a reproducible effect (they did not) fine sweep same story. Avg five shot groups for the three center fire rifles .4-.3 range. If you want all the data buy the book, all the groups are in there. The RF file was shot at 50 yards.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I am not going to reprint the entire chapter, in short he fired the center fire rifles at 100 yards groups of 5, fired 5 shot groups and adjusted the tuner per manufacturers recommendations, repeated this 3 times to see if the results (improvements to avg accuracy) and the best settings would reproduce (they did not, with any of the rifles or tuners) did a course sweep 1/2 turn through the entire tuners range five shot groups back and forth 3 times to see if any of the positions had a reproducible effect (they did not) fine sweep same story. Avg five shot groups for the three center fire rifles .4-.3 range. If you want all the data buy the book, all the groups are in there. The RF file was shot at 50 yards.

I didn't ask you to reprint the book but thanks.

Sounds like I can just put a weight randomly on the end of the bbl and it'll just be in tune there. That's not how it works, but weight does lower frequency, which widens the node very slightly.

Thanks again.

 

[boltfluter]

While Brian is obviously a very intelligent man, some of his conclusions are out in left field. Controversy will sell many books. As with anyone's opinions, take them with a grain of salt, and draw your own conclusions. Very interesting thread.
Paul

 

[Rob01]

I’m going home and throwing my tuners in the trash. Litz says they don’t work.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I’m going home and throwing my tuners in the trash. Litz says they don’t work.

Send them to me . Going Deep Sea Fishing .

 

[Liven The Dream]

I gave Litz a ride to the Air Port from a Match once.
I got $$$ for the seat in my Truck .

 

[RickyK]

Litz = Book Sales = $$$

 

[Medic505]

I purchased Litz's first book. Didn't make my rifle any more accurate.

I purchased a tuner from Mike. Helped the accuracy of my rifle.

You tell me which was the better purchase.

 

[Bill Norris]

Whatever Brian or anybody says don't hold the proof. The tuner on the rifle and the adjustments are all I need to see. It works plain and simple.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I purchased Litz's first book. Didn't make my rifle any more accurate.

I purchased a tuner from Mike. Helped the accuracy of my rifle.

You tell me which was the better purchase.

Hum !!!! The Book in Time ?

 

[BP1]

I purchased Litz's first book. Didn't make my rifle any more accurate.

I purchased a tuner from Mike. Helped the accuracy of my rifle.

You tell me which was the better purchase.

Probably makes a better paper weight….