Barrel tuners

[TylerFromMS]

Only one has got the fairy dust.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Only one has got the fairy dust.

Hmmmm.

 

[Bill Norris]

For center fires I prefer an EC. Zero issues with mine.
Exactly what Danley said. “As far as expectations, you still need to tune your load to the best of your abilities before touching the tuner. Don’t go into it expecting the tuner to be “magic” and find the load for you (as some YouTube videos show). The tuner should be used to keep you in tune in the event that you miss your mark on your load, or an unaccounted for temperature change. With that being said, they do work if you learn them and you just don’t go to twisting after every bad group”.

Now for my 22 bench rest rigs I prefer Ezell. I run an ATS on my 22 trainer rig and its pretty nifty thus far.

Absolutely. The tuner will not compensate for poor bench technique with the press, dies and prep tools. And the load development process has to be done as well to achieve a good tune. Then the tuner will enable the shooter to maintain that tune if the shooter studies the process of adjustments either in or out.

 

[TylerFromMS]

Hmmmm.

It’s magic. Don’t care what you say about all the physics crap.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It’s magic. Don’t care what you say about all the physics crap.

View attachment 1346891

Yep, almost anyway. It's just timing..and magic, too. Lol

Really though, theres no magic to it. It just seems that way.

 

[One Eye Pete]

OK here is where I will probably get laughed at.
I have tuners on my competition rifles (Bucky's tuner on my benchrest gun and EC tuner on my F-open). Do they work, yes they do. Will they help on a 6 br, yes they will. But if you aren't shooting for serious competition and don't have a threaded barrel it can be an expensive proposition to add a tuner. If you have a good 6br factory gun that shoots decent groups and want to tighten them up try a Limbsaver barrel damper. It only costs $12.00 and slips right on the barrel. It definitely tightened up the groups on my Savage LRPV 6 BR and several other of my non competition guns. Is it as good as an Ezell tuner, probably not but for 12 bucks you can't go wrong.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

OK here is where I will probably get laughed at.
I have tuners on my competition rifles (Bucky's tuner on my benchrest gun and EC tuner on my F-open). Do they work, yes they do. Will they help on a 6 br, yes they will. But if you aren't shooting for serious competition and don't have a threaded barrel it can be an expensive proposition to add a tuner. If you have a good 6br factory gun that shoots decent groups and want to tighten them up try a Limbsaver barrel damper. It only costs $12.00 and slips right on the barrel. It definitely tightened up the groups on my Savage LRPV 6 BR and several other of my non competition guns. Is it as good as an Ezell tuner, probably not but for 12 bucks you can't go wrong.

Nothing to laugh at about that. I a curious though, how you were instructed to use your other tuners as opposed to how you use a piece of soft rubber without any means for making fine adjustments. Thanks!

 

[One Eye Pete]

Nothing to laugh at about that. I a curious though, how you were instructed to use your other tuners as opposed to how you use a piece of soft rubber without any means for making fine adjustments. Thanks!

With the standard tuners you normally work up your best load first with the tuner screwed all the way in then play with the tuner by moving it out in small increments. With the Limbsaver I start with it flush with the muzzle of the barrel. In many cases I perceive an improvement right from the start. I don't know exactly why but my guess is that the rubber tends to actually reduces the amplitude of the barrel vibration. To adjust the Limbsaver I shoot 3 shot groups. I move the damper in towards the action in 1/4" increments (as measured with calipers or a ruler). This seems like a large increment but the damper is much lighter than a tuner. When I see the group get small and then start to open up again I move back out in 1/8 increments until I get them small again.
I don't know if this is the best method or if these are the optimum increments to move the damper but it seems to work. The other trick I have found is if you find it difficult to get the damper on the barrel, or move it once it is on put some silicone grease on the inside of the damper or on the barrel.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

With the standard tuners you normally work up your best load first with the tuner screwed all the way in then play with the tuner by moving it out in small increments. With the Limbsaver I start with it flush with the muzzle of the barrel. In many cases I perceive an improvement right from the start. I don't know exactly why but my guess is that the rubber tends to actually reduces the amplitude of the barrel vibration. To adjust the Limbsaver I shoot 3 shot groups. I move the damper in towards the action in 1/4" increments (as measured with calipers or a ruler). This seems like a large increment but the damper is much lighter than a tuner. When I see the group get small and then start to open up again I move back out in 1/8 increments until I get them small again.
I don't know if this is the best method or if these are the optimum increments to move the damper but it seems to work. The other trick I have found is if you find it difficult to get the damper on the barrel, or move it once it is on put some silicone grease on the inside of the damper or on the barrel.

The key to effectively using any tuner, in this context, that being a weight on the bbl to tune with..is to quantify the value of each adjustment on target, from completely in tune to completely out of tune by the shape of the groups. This range represents a nodal cycle. Actually, a half cycle, but I think you understand. Without being able to break it down to known values, every adjustment is a swag. But, because tune repeats over and over, you can certainly land on sweet spots, randomly.

But yes, a deresonator can indeed tune a rifle. The problem is that tune changes and it's not designed for accurate and repeatable adjustments.

 

[One Eye Pete]

The key to effectively using any tuner, in this context, that being a weight on the bbl to tune with..is to quantify the value of each adjustment on target, from completely in tune to completely out of tune by the shape of the groups. This range represents a nodal cycle. Actually, a half cycle, but I think you understand. Without being able to break it down to known values, every adjustment is a swag. But, because tune repeats over and over, you can certainly land on sweet spots, randomly.

But yes, a deresonator can indeed tune a rifle. The problem is that tune changes and it's not designed for accurate and repeatable adjustments.

The Limbsaver is what it is a "poor man's" tuner.
My next experiment with the Limbsaver will be to mount it behind the tuner on one of my F-open rifles. If you use lots of silicone grease you can barely stretch it onto a 1.25 barrel. My thoughts on this experiment are to get the best of both worlds, the dampening effect of the Limbsaver and the accurate adjustment of the tuner.
The Buckys tuner has a rubber insert section in it so I assume there is some merit to this. Only a test will tell.
This may take a while since I have my present match gun in a good state of tune and don't want to touch it and my other backup gun isn't quite ready yet.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The Limbsaver is what it is a "poor man's" tuner.
My next experiment with the Limbsaver will be to mount it behind the tuner on one of my F-open rifles. If you use lots of silicone grease you can barely stretch it onto a 1.25 barrel. My thoughts on this experiment are to get the best of both worlds, the dampening effect of the Limbsaver and the accurate adjustment of the tuner.
The Buckys tuner has a rubber insert section in it so I assume there is some merit to this. Only a test will tell.
This may take a while since I have my present match gun in a good state of tune and don't want to touch it and my other backup gun isn't quite ready yet.

I agree and I'm all for people testing and seeing for themselves the difference even the inexpensive deresonator can make. It makes your wheels start turning, just seeing the changes that it can make.
I was never much of a fan of the way Gene's tuner was made but I did like the concept of better dampening. I felt like a better design would be to have a mass on the outside of the rubber, rather that the rubber on the outside. Think harmonic balancer for a car engine here. Nevertheless, his design is what prompted me to look for a more efficient means of dampening, built into a tuner, so after extensive research and testing, I settled on "particle dampening." There's info and a link to a study on this subject done at Texas A&M on my website. It may bore you to death or maybe not, but it's the basis for my design and has proven to be a very effective and popular tuner. There is very little doubt about tuners today. We know they work. A few years ago, it was still much like voodoo, due to so many different approaches to using them. It's much better today but there is still a lot of confusing info out there, like moving them way too far at a time, for example. That's why I'm pretty adamant about being very methodical and quantifying the value of each mark on paper and the distance between completely in tune to completely out. This is very small. On my tuners, it's typical only about 4-5 marks of the tuner, which is only .004 or .005" of tuner travel. So once you establish a good tune, you'll never be more than about .005" or 5 marks away from it. So you're never moving the tuner much at all and in use, typically far less than even that amount! I say all that to impress upon anyone that cares, how easy it is to maintain tune when you know you can never be more than a few marks away. Group shapes tell the story as far as knowing how far away you are. It's remarkably predictable.

 

[Bill Norris]

I agree and I'm all for people testing and seeing for themselves the difference even the inexpensive deresonator can make. It makes your wheels start turning, just seeing the changes that it can make.
I was never much of a fan of the way Gene's tuner was made but I did like the concept of better dampening. I felt like a better design would be to have a mass on the outside of the rubber, rather that the rubber on the outside. Think harmonic balancer for a car engine here. Nevertheless, his design is what prompted me to look for a more efficient means of dampening, built into a tuner, so after extensive research and testing, I settled on "particle dampening." There's info and a link to a study on this subject done at Texas A&M on my website. It may bore you to death or maybe not, but it's the basis for my design and has proven to be a very effective and popular tuner. There is very little doubt about tuners today. We know they work. A few years ago, it was still much like voodoo, due to so many different approaches to using them. It's much better today but there is still a lot of confusing info out there, like moving them way too far at a time, for example. That's why I'm pretty adamant about being very methodical and quantifying the value of each mark on paper and the distance between completely in tune to completely out. This is very small. On my tuners, it's typical only about 4-5 marks of the tuner, which is only .004 or .005" of tuner travel. So once you establish a good tune, you'll never be more than about .005" or 5 marks away from it. So you're never moving the tuner much at all and in use, typically far less than even that amount! I say all that to impress upon anyone that cares, how easy it is to maintain tune when you know you can never be more than a few marks away. Group shapes tell the story as far as knowing how far away you are. It's remarkably predictable.

Totally agree with you. This is a test with my 6BRX and 105 gr. bullets with only 1/2 increments from in tune @ setting of 6. 5.5 and 6.5 began to move the bullet around and off the 1/4 inch dot.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Here's a very general depiction of what we're doing with tuners.
In tune at both top and bottom. Completely out in the middle and tuner marks circled in blue ink for reference.
edit...Actually, I drew this pic wrong because I should have had the numbers going up the slope of the sine wave instead of down it. But I think it still gets the point across.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Totally agree with you. This is a test with my 6BRX and 105 gr. bullets with only 1/2 increments from in tune @ setting of 6. 5.5 and 6.5 began to move the bullet around and off the 1/4 inch dot.

Cool isn't it!!
Different tuners have different mark values and it can be significantly different between makes, as to how far between in tune and out of tune.
That's why I don't give specific instructions that apply across the board but you can bet it's not far on any of them.
Effectively, we are changing phase time, moving the top of the sine wave left or right to optimize where the bbl is when the bullet reaches the muzzle.

 

[Bill Norris]

Cool isn't it!!
Different tuners have different mark values and it can be significantly different between makes, as to how far between in tune and out of tune.
That's why I don't give specific instructions that apply across the board but you can bet it's nor far on any of them.
Effectively, we are changing phase time, moving the top of the sine wave left or right to optimize where the bbl is when the bullet reaches the muzzle.

Exactly. On the E C T/B the increments are only @ 1/8 inch apart. It didn't take very long at all for me to realize that down and out and up and in was the correct way to turn the tuner to keep the load in tune.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Exactly. On the E C T/B the increments are only @ 1/8 inch apart.

About the same as mine but the radius is different where the numbers are engraved...which kinda makes it apples and oranges. Actual tuner travel on mine is essentially 1 mark = .001"
32tpi and 32 marks around it.
This is for my standard tuner. The new lighter model is different. It's amazing how much difference it was. I only use 10 full numbers on the light model vs 32 on the std.

 

[Bill Norris]

About the same as mine but the radius is different where the numbers are engraved...which kinda makes it apples and oranges. Actual tuner travel on mine is essentially 1 mark = .001"
32tpi and 32 marks around it.

I guess on the E C T/B one would need to check between each hash mark to tune even finer than just each mark.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I guess on the E C T/B one would need to check between each hash mark to tune even finer than just each mark.

Maybe and maybe not. But in theory, yes. You need to know what the value of each mark is on the target, from in tune to completely out. Again, on my tuner that's only 4 or 5 group shapes(marks) to recognize and keep up with.

 

[Bill Norris]

Maybe and maybe not. But in theory, yes. You need to know what the value of each mark is on the target, from in tune to completely out. Again, on my tuner that's only 4 or 5 group shapes(marks) to recognize and keep up with.

Yes, I would imagine each make of tuner has a little difference in the numerical layout. Ultimately ,one can get a feel of the tuner and tune each load to satisfaction.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I guess on the E C T/B one would need to check between each hash mark to tune even finer than just each mark.

I generally don't mess with half marks. The value has to be enough to predictably change the group, to read, in conditions. In perfect conditions, I can sometimes see a half mark on paper but if it's not enough to make a clear change, then how can I know that I didn't go a half mark the wrong way, for sure?