Another "shooting in the wind" thread

[4xforfun]

There is another active thread about which wind is best to test in. I decided not to hyjack that thread. Several people on that thread are saying basicly that the best calm day load for your gun may not be the best load for windy conditions....that you need to load test in the conditions that you will compete. I have been hearing that for years, and not just from JOE SHOOTER, but from some of the best of the best.

Can someone please explain this theory for me. I don't want to hear a "just because" answer. I want facts, data, or SOMETHING to convince me that this is true. If it is true, then there must be some mathamatical formula to show why.

Now....PRACTICE in the conditions you will compete make perfect sense. Also, I can see that a FASTER load will buck the wind better, but I am sure that this is not what they are talking about.

Thanks,
Tod

 

[Jason Boersma]

I don't know if your going to get cold hard facts/data on which is better but the majority will always say calm is best. I've worked up a load in calm conditions and in a steady cross wind and both ways shot equally in matches. In a steady cross wind, any steady wind, you will still get one seating depth and one powder charge that will shoot smaller groups than the rest just like in calm conditions. No matter what if you have the best load for your barrel it'll help shoot through the wind

 

[Topstrap]

Hmmmmm, I'd think an accurate load in perfectly calm conditions is the best load for any conditions. I can't see what testing loads whether it be centerfire or rimfire in wind is going to tell you anything about that loads accuracy.

Shooting with your most accurate load in various wind will tell you whether you are learning to read it or not. Shooting my rimfire out thru 300 yards and practicing reading the conditions, learning to pay attention to everything available to you with your surroundings and what Mother Nature is sharing with you has really helped my 1000 yard shooting.

I did grab a bag of old popcorn from Rural King to have ready, this could be early on what might get to be an interesting thread. As for cold hard facts or data, don't have any but after shooting all types of long range something or another since the late 70's I don't need further convincing.

Good luck,

Topstrap

 

[LHSmith]

When you get an answer that you're satisfied with, ask them if it's also the same reason why a barrel/load combination may favor a left vs. right crosswind (or vice-versa).....or why do some barrels (a very few) have such a wide tune window that the need to hold off for conditions is virtually non-existent. If they can't explain it, they'll claim it does not exist....yet many shooter's experience this phenomenon.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Take for instance a 6ppc- ill use that because i shoot 15k plus from one every year. You can put a light load in there thatll shoot lights out in a calm but look like a shotgun when the wind picks up. Thats when you need like 2+ more grains of powder to get it to shoot in conditions. A pip squeak node will fool you into thinking you got something. Works the same way on anything. I have a dasher barrel thatll shoot low ones at 100 with 28.5 gr- you think thats gonna fare well at 600 in even 5mph wind going 300fps slower than normal?

 

[Terry]

Thank you!

I like this thread, and look forward to the answers.

All I have to offer is experience. We almost never get perfect wind to test in.
We do get a lot of variation, which gives real life experience. In 600 yard Benchrest
the best relative group wins. Some days thats 3", some days 1.5". One wise man said
"If the wind is not blowing, how will the bullets know where to go."
Given time to think on this I understand the wisdom in this statement. Calm winds are rarely
truly calm, we just cannot detect the suttle changes. These changes were referred to as "Gost Winds"
in a NBRSA article.

Now to the Math.

Given the choice I would take a steady, full value wind. I steady full value wind gives less deviation than wind with changing velocities or values. If the wind is at 9:00 at a steady 5 mph. My groups will be steady and consistant. If the wind fluctuates from 5-10 mph my groups will swell due to the wind pushing more or less. With a 9:00 wind my groups may doubble in size due to this fluctuation. If the wind changes from full value to 3/4 or 1/2 value it will have the effect of swelling my groups and changing how they print on paper.

An increase in a 9:00 wind will push my bullet low and right. An increase in a 3:00 wind will push my bullet high and left. (This is with a right twist barrel.)

Print your trajectory data sheet. Then apply the math. This will prove it to you. If a 10 mph wind at the muzzel moves your bullet 6" at 600 yards, then a change in value or speed will produce a perdictable result.

Happy Shooting!

Terry

 

[4xforfun]

Thi

Take for instance a 6ppc- ill use that because i shoot 15k plus from one every year. You can put a light load in there thatll shoot lights out in a calm but look like a shotgun when the wind picks up. Thats when you need like 2+ more grains of powder to get it to shoot in conditions. A pip squeak node will fool you into thinking you got something. Works the same way on anything. I have a dasher barrel thatll shoot low ones at 100 with 28.5 gr- you think thats gonna fare well at 600 in even 5mph wind going 300fps slower than normal?

This would fall under the " shoot faster to better buck the wind" camp. It is 100% true and very believable/proveable. But, this is not the theory that has been out there for milions and millions of years. Your high speed, best grouping load may not be the best grouping load in unfavorable conditions....at least, that is the theory. LOL

 

[4xforfun]

Thank you!

I like this thread, and look forward to the answers.

All I have to offer is experience. We almost never get perfect wind to test in.
We do get a lot of variation, which gives real life experience. In 600 yard Benchrest
the best relative group wins. Some days thats 3", some days 1.5". One wise man said
"If the wind is not blowing, how will the bullets know where to go."
Given time to think on this I understand the wisdom in this statement. Calm winds are rarely
truly calm, we just cannot detect the suttle changes. These changes were referred to as "Gost Winds"
in a NBRSA article.

Now to the Math.

Given the choice I would take a steady, full value wind. I steady full value wind gives less deviation than wind with changing velocities or values. If the wind is at 9:00 at a steady 5 mph. My groups will be steady and consistant. If the wind fluctuates from 5-10 mph my groups will swell due to the wind pushing more or less. With a 9:00 wind my groups may doubble in size due to this fluctuation. If the wind changes from full value to 3/4 or 1/2 value it will have the effect of swelling my groups and changing how they print on paper.

An increase in a 9:00 wind will push my bullet low and right. An increase in a 3:00 wind will push my bullet high and left. (This is with a right twist barrel.)

Print your trajectory data sheet. Then apply the math. This will prove it to you. If a 10 mph wind at the muzzel moves your bullet 6" at 600 yards, then a change in value or speed will produce a perdictable result.

Happy Shooting!

Terry

This is a whole nother issue....the "which is the best wind to test in". This is being hashed over on the OTHER wind thread. This , too, is very proveable...9:00 or 3:00 winds are far better to test in than 12:00/6:00 winds....simply because the winds are always switching, even if just a little bit.

What I am asking is weather or not the theoretical BEST load in calm conditions will not be the best in windy conditions. That is what has been put forth forever.....and I just don't understand and can't grasp the idea. Where is the proof to prove this theory?

 

[Terry]

Have you read Tony Boyer's book?

It says some degree of wind resistance is tunable.
This "tuned" load is not the best calm wind load.

I have not proven Tony's data at 600.

 

[Lapua40X]

OK, Tod

Let's take the voodoo out of it ...............

Bullet performance repeatability can only be maintained when every element considered as having an effect on accuracy remains constant. You can develop a load in calm wind; it will behave differently in high wind. The opposite is also true. So unless you can accurately predict what the wind will be when you have to rely on a specific load at a specific range you're chasing your tail; and don't forget atmospheric pressure and relative humidity. Therefore, when I'm working up any load I try to obtain the best accuracy at the velocity that offers the shortest time in flight between the muzzle and the target - without creating dangerous pressures of course. Obviously, that doesn't eliminate the wind issues. But neither do any of the other reloading practices I've seen, heard of, read about, witnessed or used. In competition I'm focused on maintaining a tight "water line", which forces me to focus on eliminating vertical stringing. I can estimate wind speed and direction and make adjustments in sighting to reduce their effect.
Go here:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/featured/transonic-effects-on-bullet-stability-bc/
Then go here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0692208437/?tag=accuratescom-20
Whether you buy it on Kindle or hard cover it should, IMO, be included in every shooter's library.

 

[BoydAllen]

Some years back, when I was shooting a match at Visalia, along with Walt and Eunice. I was standing next to her as we waited for the first relay of the first match of the day to get started, and I said something to her like, "It looks like it's going to be a trigger pulling contest." Meaning that there were no flags or tails moving over the whole range. I believe that we were shooting 100 yards. Her reply is worth noting. She said something to the effect that even though there were no flags or tails moving that there were things out there that would move a bullet, and that there was no mirage (The floor of the range was shaded by the tall abrupt side berm.) and that she shot mirage (meaning she used it). I asked her if she preferred a light steady condition to what we were looking at. She said that she did. It was a three day event, and the conditions varied. Virtually all of her groups were in the mothball, and she won the three gun. After that I contemplated writing an article about that match titled something like, "Getting Your Ass Kicked by a Great Grandmother". Take it for what it is worth. I do however remember one days practice at the same range when the clouds formed a very high layer that covered the sky, not a blade or leaf moved in the slightest, and I learned things that I could not have seen in any other condition. The barrel, load and rifle were working perfectly, and I could see the effects of small things in how I was handling the rifle that would have been lost in the noise of any other condition. If you are looking for scientific verities relating to the subtleties of the most accurate shooting, I think that your search will be long, and disappointing. Most of the time we are lucky to have observed and noted when I do this that happens. Knowing why it happens may not be possible, but that does not keep people for arguing about the differences in their imaginings.

 

[Jason Boersma]

The thing to remember is that accuracy is the most important thing, especially for long range shooting even if it's not the fastest load. That's why it's important to try and work up a load at your intended distance for competition.

 

[4xforfun]

The thing to remember is that accuracy is the most important thing, especially for long range shooting even if it's not the fastest load. That's why it's important to try and work up a load at your intended distance for competition.

That is EXACTLY what I did while I was winning matches....my load development and practice was ALL at 1000 yards, and I brought home enough wood to keep me at least semi warm!! I will also note that my load development was done in as calm of conditions as I could find...which some times had me shooting between midnight and 3 am under the lights.

 

[Mozella]

Precision (small groups at the target) is a science, wind reading is an art. But many people mix the two and cling to a myth in preference to believing the science.

Often times scientific principles are easier to understand when you consider the extremes.

Consider a load which shoots 1/2 MOA with a muzzle velocity of 9000 fps out of a .223 with a 200gr bullet with a BC of 1.000. This is essentially a laser with very high velocity all the way to the target.

At 600 yards, in no wind, a recipe shooting 1/4MOA with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps with a 55gr bullet with a BC of .235 will win even though by the time it reaches the target is has the energy of a BB gun.

However, with any wind, which we know is never steady and completely predictable, the 1/2 MOA load will win simply because it gets to the target so quickly and maintains a high velocity all the way to the target. Even though this recipe is much less accurate than the other one, the slow, accurate bullet will blow first one way and then the other as it navigates the wind gusts on it's long, slow, trip to the target. Basically, it hangs around in unpredictable winds too long to maintain it's inherent precision at long ranges.

I always try to discover my most precise load recipe for a particular gun, but I also carefully measure and log the ones which aren't quite as good. Depending on the velocity and bullet weight/B.C. I normally shoot a round which does not produce the smallest group.

However MV is not the entire answer either. Precision (accuracy) is very important too and it's the job of the shooter to first discover the facts, and then use them to balance velocity against precision to find the recipe with the best chance of producing a high score.

 

[skiutah02]

I've been following the various, some-what-related threads including this one, the one about what is the best wind to shoot in, how to use turners to tune to varying environmental conditions, one load being more "wind-resistant" or have "wind bucking" ability than another, etc with alot of interest. I've been trying to wrap my head around all of these discussions and with alot of talented shooters weighing in, I am very keen on understanding (aren't we all). As I process the info, I keep thinking about one particular target I shot a few years ago during load workup. I post it below as a prop. Throwing this out there and perhaps it can serve as a way for everyone to help me understand.



If I understand what is being said (by some):

Lets say the conditions are ideal. Calm to very light wind. I might consider using the 24.3 load since it has better vertical and the wider grouping will not be a huge disadvantage since the wind shouldn't blow it around very much and should not be broadening the fundamental horizontal distribution.

If there is a normal to windy condition. I should favor the 24.2 load since it had a very narrow horizontal distribution (aka more wind resistant??) and while the vertical might be acceptable (although a little worse that 24.3) the fundamental horizontal distribution should make it perform better (and with more tolerance for error in hold) in the wind.

What do you think?

Drew

 

[BartsBullets]

Drew,

You are getting it! I would take the 24.2 every time over the 24.3.

 

[4xforfun]

So, who says that the 24.3 horizontal group was caused by wind? Just because it is horizontal? Gun handling had nothing to do with either of those groups?

 

[BartsBullets]

So, who says that the 24.3 horizontal group was caused by wind? Just because it is horizontal? Gun handling had nothing to do with either of those groups?

Lets just say for the sake of the discussion that it wasn't gun handling or the wind. Now which one do you think will shoot better through out the day?

 

[skiutah02]

Drew,

You are getting it! I would take the 24.2 every time over the 24.3.

Bart, thanks. One step forward...

 

[Topstrap]

Seeing 10 groups of each with identical results maybe but hard to prove anything with just one of each.

Wouldn't a group with the same amount of verticle dispersion miss a tiny little target the same amount as one with horizontal dispersion?

I've never shot anywhere where the wind remains a constant. We shoot all different directions (approx 300 deg arc) thru multiple tree lines, across fields, 3 or 4 valleys and a couple streams seeing wind changes sometimes 3 or4 directions between us and the target from 235 yards to 1000 yards.

The smaller high value targets are really small, really haven't seen the advantage of a slightly faster less accurate load over the most accurate slightly slower load for getting more high value hits.

I can see the science and theory behind it but learning to shoot in windy conditions with your most accurate load will get you more points or hits than your faster less accurate load most times. At Rayners there are no sighters, first shot at each distance is for score so you better learn to pay attention to Mother Nature.

Topstrap