The best wind for testing groups.

[Cold Bore]

I read an article in precision shooting of a building that was vacant used in this manner.

The famous Houston Warehouse.

 

[LHSmith]

The famous Houston Warehouse.

or "INFAMOUS" depending who you talk to.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have spoken with someone who spent quite a bit of time in that warehouse. He said that he never saw the groups that were reported as common. I have a friend with a very good tunnel and he has improved his shooting by its use, but of course it teaches him nothing about reading conditions. Often shooters are looking for magic rifle or reloading components when what they really need to do is to wear out barrels learning how to read their flags, stay in tune, and handle their rifle consistently. The worse the conditions are, the more it is on the shooter. Few matches are shot under perfect conditions.

 

[spclark]

Often shooters are looking for magic rifle or reloading components when what they really need to do is to wear out barrels learning how to read their flags, stay in tune, and handle their rifle consistently.

S'truth that!

My take is that shooters can be separated into two groups: those that think it's "the arrow not the indian" that counts most and those that truly strive to learn how to shoot. Confidence acquired early on once you count yourself among the latter goes a long way towards keeping you there.

 

[BartsBullets]

Load development is not about improving your wind reading skills. It's about finding the absolute best load you can, and the closest thing you can get to zero wind will give you the very best input on what the different parameters of your load development are actually doing to your precision. I am fortunate enough to have access to an indoor 100 yd range, where I do the majority of my load development. Once you have an optimized load, you can then work on your wind reading skills with absolute confidence that the bullets are going exactly where the you pointed the rifle combined with any influence of the wind.

Load development is a straightforward scientific experiment, and anyone that knows something about designing and carrying out scientific experiments will tell you that isolation of variables is a must if you want to get interpretable and meaningful answers from your experiment. Trying to do load development (as opposed to load validation, which is a totally different thing) under windy conditions will be an exercise in futility for anyone that doesn't already have excellent wind reading skills.

I have to disagree with you. The point of Load development is to have a competitive tune for the type match and conditions you are going to shoot in. Tuning in zero conditions may give you a competitive tune but more often then not it won't hold up through out a match.

Bart

 

[Lapua40X]

Sorry Bart, I can't agree with that:

Bullet performance repeatability can only be maintained when every element considered as having an effect on accuracy remains constant. You can develop a load in calm wind; it will behave differently in high wind. The opposite is also true. So unless you can accurately predict what the wind will be when you have to rely on a specific load at a specific range you're chasing your tail; and don't forget atmospheric pressure and relative humidity. In my experience it's more important to obtain the best accuracy at the velocity that offers the shortest time in flight between the muzzle and the target - without creating dangerous pressures of course. Obviously, that doesn't eliminate the wind issues. But neither do any of the other reloading practices I've seen, heard of, read about, witnessed or used. In competition I'm focused on maintaining a tight "water line". I focus on eliminating vertical stringing and practice estimating wind speed and direction and make adjustments for wind hold.

 

[savagedasher]

Sorry Bart, I can't agree with that:

Bullet performance repeatability can only be maintained when every element considered as having an effect on accuracy remains constant. You can develop a load in calm wind; it will behave differently in high wind. The opposite is also true. So unless you can accurately predict what the wind will be when you have to rely on a specific load at a specific range you're chasing your tail; and don't forget atmospheric pressure and relative humidity. In my experience it's more important to obtain the best accuracy at the velocity that offers the shortest time in flight between the muzzle and the target - without creating dangerous pressures of course. Obviously, that doesn't eliminate the wind issues. But neither do any of the other reloading practices I've seen, heard of, read about, witnessed or used. In competition I'm focused on maintaining a tight "water line". I focus on eliminating vertical stringing and practice estimating wind speed and direction and make adjustments for wind hold.

Wow Bart and his friend have shot more bullets then any group I can think of. and your don't agree . I trust Bart Larry

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that we would all like to have a highly sheltered range or good tunnel to use to see if our equipment and components are up to snuff. Once that knowledge has been obtained, further work can be done out in the real world, but for checking out bullets barrel and scopes, as well as the raw potential of other reloading components, and shooting equipment, I think that nothing will beat a tunnel, or in Bart's case, his slot range. No one that I know would reject the opportunity to test his equipment in such a facility, and I think that they all would understand that shooting in one teaches nothing about dealing with outdoor range loading and shooting conditions. For a bullet maker, being able to do quality control without having to wait around for suitable conditions is, I am sure, a real plus.

 

[Mozella]

A lot of rimfire comp is shot in buildings....but shooting inside buildings has it's own nuances to overcome. There are still air currents due to temp. differentials. Even shooting tunnels need fans to address mirage issues.
Furthermore, you are missing the bigger point.... as Matt said-you ABSOLUTELY MUST test loads in the same conditions you anticipate to compete in. A load tuned for benign conditions will ONLY be accurate for those exact conditions....unless you have a very exceptional barrel.
AFAIK, there is no venue in the Benchrest or F-Class where one can expect benign conditions throughout the course of the match.

I would have to disagree. Here's my take.

Wind, they say, is the main challenge when it comes to shooting F-Class. I would refine that statement by saying that is actually a combination of variations in the wind velocity/direction coupled with the fact that we can't read those variations accurately that make the difference.

If it were possible to shoot in a completely steady and absolutely consistent 25mph wind, it would be a simple matter of consulting your ballistics app, dialing in the correct scope adjustments, and then, perhaps after a bit of further fine tuning, shooting a bunch of 10s. Of course, in the real world, wind isn't steady, and that's why F-class (and other medium/long range competition) is so challenging.

To my way of thinking, wind variations and ballistics precision are two different things. In other words, the best combination of bullet, charge weight, and all the other factors is the first goal and testing to find this combination is made much more difficult at longer ranges and variable winds. I say, test in zero wind conditions at short ranges, at least in the beginning, to establish the best load as well as gathering data on less precise combinations.

Of course wind is always a factor and finding the best load in windy conditions is important too, but not until you know what works in your rifle and what doesn't. Perhaps more important, for me at least, is to know what works pretty well because it is that recipe which might prove best when the wind blows.

This is my reasoning. At longer ranges and with variable wind, the round which is the absolutely most precise may not produce the best score. Let's say, for example, that a .223 F/TR rifle shoots Berger VLD 80gr bullets at 2540 fps and makes 5 shot groups averaging .337 MOA at 100 yards in zero wind. However, that same bullet at 3022 fps producing larger groups, say .408 MOA, might very well be a better choice for 600 yard F/TR competition in shifty winds. Or, how about a 90gr Sierra Match King at 2389 fps shooting groups of .289 MOA? Is that an even better choice at 600 yards or not? You have to consider the effects of B.C., MV, and precision and study how they effect the bullet as it travels to the target. In other words, a load with a lower B.C. but a higher MV might be a better choice, or perhaps not. The answers will be revealed, but only if you have lots of carefully gathered zero wind data to work with. Once you have that data, you can simulate missing a wind call by 2 mph, let's say, and then determine which of your loads will cope with that mistake the most effectively. But without knowing the basics, you're just wearing out a barrel.

Studying the ballistics data using your real-world MV, SD, and group size data and trying to determine the best recipe for windy conditions will be time well spent. Only after determining a reasonable starting point would I recommend testing in conditions similar to those you expect to see in competition.

Ammunition can't somehow "know" that it's windy and somehow become more accurate in windy conditions when compared to the results in zero wind. And a bullet which is diverging from the desired POI at 100 yards, doesn't somehow converge toward the bulls eye further down range unless Berger has introduced a TV guided bullet I don't know about.

Precision is exactly that and the inherent precision of a round doesn't somehow change when the wind blows. It's up to the shooter, not the bullet, to compensate for variations in the wind and that isn't easy. If it were, F-class would be simply a shooting demonstration where everyone shoots all X's because even at low-key F-class events, shooters have sub 1/2 MOA equipment and skills. It's the wind that introduces the challenging variable.

Conducting load development in the same conditions in which I typically compete is a fools errand because wind is by FAR the largest variable masking every other factor; therefore, doing load development at long ranges in windy conditions is, to my way of thinking, not the best path to high scores in competitive events. The answers might eventually be revealed, but most likely just about the same time the barrel wears out.

 

[BartsBullets]

Sorry Bart, I can't agree with that:

Bullet performance repeatability can only be maintained when every element considered as having an effect on accuracy remains constant. You can develop a load in calm wind; it will behave differently in high wind. The opposite is also true. So unless you can accurately predict what the wind will be when you have to rely on a specific load at a specific range you're chasing your tail; and don't forget atmospheric pressure and relative humidity. In my experience it's more important to obtain the best accuracy at the velocity that offers the shortest time in flight between the muzzle and the target - without creating dangerous pressures of course. Obviously, that doesn't eliminate the wind issues. But neither do any of the other reloading practices I've seen, heard of, read about, witnessed or used. In competition I'm focused on maintaining a tight "water line". I focus on eliminating vertical stringing and practice estimating wind speed and direction and make adjustments for wind hold.

Lapua40

It's a tough concept to wrap your mind around. Like I said it may work and it may not. Few shooters grasp the concept of a load being wind sensitive. Every time I hear the term "water line" I think "wind sensitive". I just can't help it.

For example here's a 600 yard target my kid shot. The water line is magnificent. But when I look at that target I see wind sensitive. In my experience two to three more tenths of powder would have helped shrink that group by introducing some verticle and the guns performance through out the day would have been better.




This debate is also very dependent on the sport you are shooting and the type of tune/accuracy required. Bryan Litz described his method for tuning for F/TR. He shoots his inside a lab which is in pretty much zero condition. What he does works for him and his sport. Does it produce the most accurate load combination probably not. If you need a precision load that holds up in the wind. You need to start learning how to tune in the wind.

Bart

 

[liljoe]

Lapua40

It's a tough concept to wrap your mind around. Like I said it may work and it may not. Few shooters grasp the concept of a load being wind sensitive. Every time I hear the term "water line" I think "wind sensitive". I just can't help it.

For example here's a 600 yard target my kid shot. The water line is magnificent. But when I look at that target I see wind sensitive. In my experience two to three more tenths of powder would have helped shrink that group by introducing some verticle and the guns performance through out the day would have been better.




This debate is also very dependent on the sport you are shooting the type of tune/accuracy required. Bryan Litz described his method for tuning for F/TR. He shoots his inside a lab which is in pretty much zero condition. What he does works for him and his sport. Does it produce the most accurate load combination probably not. If you need a precision load that holds up in the wind. You need to start learning how to tune in the wind.

Bart

C'mon Bart,

Look how good that gun is tuned, it's shooting nice and flat. Heath just missed a small change. How many time's have you heard that before?

Joe Hynes

 

[BartsBullets]

C'mon Bart,

Look how good that gun is tuned, it's shooting nice and flat. Heath just missed a small change. How many time's have you heard that before?

Joe Hynes

For those that don't know it aka Little Joe (Joe Hines) won the NBRSA 4 Gun Nationals this year. He knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Bart

 

[Lapua40X]

Points well taken, Bart. When I analyse the dialogue we share here I wonder if perhaps we are closer to agreeing that it might appear.
First of all, allow me to say that the target in the image suggests to me that, assuming that the shot that went a little wide-right immediately preceded the two that scored wide left, we may have a young shooter who is chasing the spotter and the vertical may be attributable to rear bag. Just a guess; but I always prefer weighing every possibility.
That said, I wouldn't want to leave the impression that considering wind influences on the load are not important. Bullet Stability/Velocity certainly does make a difference in how well the projectile will perform on its way to the target under the influence of wind. Therefore, the less time the bullet spends spinning around while traveling down range the better. But if I try to design a load for a 300 aggregate match that can produce a 300-30x score with a sustained 5mph full value cross wind and the wind is 9mph on the day of the match I still have to know something about reading the wind to compensate.
Congrats to your son on his achievements. I have a son who is an excellent rifleman (does well with pistol too) of whom I am equally proud.

 

[BartsBullets]

Points well taken, Bart. When I analyse the dialogue we share here I wonder if perhaps we are closer to agreeing that it might appear.
First of all, allow me to say that the target in the image suggests to me that, assuming that the shot that went a little wide-right immediately preceded the two that scored wide left, we may have a young shooter who is chasing the spotter and the vertical may be attributable to rear bag. Just a guess; but I always prefer weighing every possibility.
That said, I wouldn't want to leave the impression that considering wind influences on the load are not important. Bullet+Velocity certainly does make a difference in how well the projectile will perform on its way to the target under the influence of wind. Therefore, the less time the bullet spends spinning around while traveling down range the better. But if I try to design a load for a 300 aggregate match that can produce a 300-30x score with a sustained 5mph full value cross wind and the wind is 9mph on the day of the match I still have to know something about reading the wind to compensate.
Congrats to your son on his achievements. I have a son who is an excellent rifleman (does well with pistol too) of whom I am equally proud.

Lapua40

That type of match you don't get a spotter to chase. It was a 600 yard IBS Bench club match. The goal is to shoot the smallest group you can while trying to get the highest score possible. So a good group in the middle of the target is the goal.

Although a great target. It is a fine example of being too wind sensitive. So as the wind picked up durning the match my suspicions were correct.
The gun needed a little more powder.

Mozella a few posts back is kind of saying what I am. Which is the load that shoots the smallest may not be the best load for your application. He is going at it from a different angle and accuracy perspective. But saying essentially the same thing.

I can shoot in near zero conditions anytime I want. I have a 100 yard long a ditch with concrete walls. It's about 24 inches wide and 4 foot deep. It works much like a tunnel without all of air evacuation problems a tunnel has. It's a great tool for a lot of things but it's not where I tune my rifle.

Bart

 

[Dusty Stevens]

"Got a good waterline"
Translation: you missed conditions on a wind sensitive load.

 

[STS]

I will take a gentle 1 to 3 mph 90 degree cross wind over any other wind to test and tune in. Head and tail wind can give you unexplained vertical. Quartering wind have both a vertical and horizontal effect that makes it difficult to deal with. I learned that a dead calm (or what appeared to be dead calm) often is not dead calm. We used to shoot Unlimited BR matches at night and at times the wind flags would all be hanging straight down without a hint of movement. But there was still enough air movement to cause a mirage run that could be seen at 200 yards. You had to watch very carefully for switches in that mirage caused by drifting air mass that would give left and right in what appeared to be dead calm. It was interesting to look through the scope on a 70 pound rail gun and watch the dot float around on the target from slow moving mirage.

 

[Joe Salt]

Bart your son still has good eyes, unlike us old guys. Great shooting and I believe there are rifles that shoot through the wind!

Joe Salt

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart your son still has good eyes, unlike us old guys. Great shooting and I believe there are rifles that shoot through the wind!

Joe Salt

Thanks Joe! The boy does have great eyes and steady hands.

You are absolutely right some guns do shoot through the wind. I spend a small fortune looking for the barrels that help them do that! That's a difficult one for the guys that tune with a ballistics calculator and chronograph to accept.

Bart

 

[dkhunt14]

Thanks Joe! The boy does have great eyes and steady hands.

You are absolutely right some guns do shoot through the wind. I spend a small fortune looking for the barrels that help them do that! That's a difficult one for the guys that tune with a ballistics calculator and chronograph to accept.

Bart

I totally agree with this. Sometimes I think it not only a good barrel but one tuned to the conditions. You can see this when on the line with other guns. It also shows up more at distance then close. This is why I believe you need to tune at the distance you shoot. Matt

 

[expiper]

OP,,,,the wind does not thest the load,,,it tests the shooter,,,,Roger