AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[bozo699]

I've been through the others as I have stated elsewhere. I gave my Salt Bath stuff away last year and I never liked the results from the Ken Light machine. Some of us have been through a LOT!

I have two Ken light machines and for me has done a great job but there’s many other options. If you decide to sell your Ken Light let me know if you have wheels I don’t have I would be interested
Wayne

 

[JFrank]

I disagree. Think about it again.

Hi Pete ,
I wasn’t even going to respond any further to this thread but since we’re already off topic, WTH.
Braxton posted this ;
Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

I don’t share the results of this blanket statement. That’s all I can go on, I won’t dispute if your results are different I can only speak of my own.
Jim

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Hi Pete ,
I wasn’t even going to respond any further to this thread but since we’re already off topic, WTH.
Braxton posted this ;
Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

I don’t share the results of this blanket statement. That’s all I can go on, I won’t dispute if your results are different I can only speak of my own.
Jim

i should have added a little more to my statement when I was referring to the bushings and mandrels.

you will need to move more brass with unannealed (yield the brass into plastic deformation past its higher elastic state) to achieve the same interference fit.

if you don't move (yield) the brass enough its just going to spring back to where it was.

this is nothing that can't be compensated for, but it is an effect that should be kept in mind if your interference fit is changing as the brass continues to harden up.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Im sure you will see a difference if you test this. Theres a difference just in how much you anneal. I shot a lot of annealed vs non annealed test in many different cartridges. All long range stuff. I also get all the feedback from customers so I get to see what guys are doing that are having success all over the country. Based on all of that I will say that you can do it both ways. You can have equal success annealing or not annealing. You ma come to a conclusion that annealing is better or that it hurt accuracy in your rifle. But in the next one the results can flip. If the same size is large enough your going to see that. Now personally I do not anneal. I never got improvement on target. In many cases it didnt hurt though. When I compare my process to others who are having success with annealing I do see some differences. Ill use the BRA for an example. I tend to run a lot of neck tension and I like the high node. When I look at the guys that are shooting small annealing, they are running half as much neck tension and are on the low node. There are probably some other differences but those are the most common ones. The cases that I could not shoot the difference in liked really light neck tension. My 338 lapua imp is a good example, the lighter you go the better and annealed brass shot great. My point is that any test you do will apply to your setup only. You cant come to conclusions based on others. You need to test this for yourself. Annealing effects neck tension and its part of your tune. Test it, and test your neck bushings too. It should be looked at like seating depth and powder charge. Just another part of the tune

the only thing i really want to see with this test is the point at which unannealed brass starts to reach a point of equilibrium of hardness.

starting from virgin, each subsequent sizing/firing will work harden the brass more and more. I want to see and measure the effects this has on seating force and spring back vs annealed brass. And I want to see how many firings it takes til the hardness "settles down".

its just something that went through my head that I would like to see some data on.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I know some guys have pushed it way out there. I think @tom Has BRA brass with probably 40ish on it and Donovan had some Dasher brass with 100+. It does seem like around 8 firings things settle in but Im sure thats lot specific too.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I know some guys have pushed it way out there. I think @tom Has BRA brass with probably 40ish on it and Donovan had some Dasher brass with 100+. It does seem like around 8 firings things settle in but Im sure thats lot specific too.

thank you for the input Alex, that is a very impressive amount of cycles without annealing!

Like you said, there are alot of variables that will determine the rate at which the brass work hardens depending on specific brass and ones own sizing process, but I think it will be very interesting to see a good visual representation of the data from what is going on between virgin and a state of hardness equilibrium.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

With quality brass I cant remember a neck splitting. I had 223 brass split in 2 firings, no wonder it was so cheap. I think the brass quality has the biggest effect on how long it will last. Much more than annealing vs not. I think most of us on here would be more interested in the effect on accuracy vs longevity. I think even with saami chambers quality brass is hard to wear out.

 

[shoot4fun]

With quality brass I cant remember a neck splitting. I had 223 brass split in 2 firings, no wonder it was so cheap. I think the brass quality has the biggest effect on how long it will last. Much more than annealing vs not. I think most of us on here would be more interested in the effect on accuracy vs longevity. I think even with saami chambers quality brass is hard to wear out.

This!!!!!

 

[Cfshooter]

With quality brass I cant remember a neck splitting. I had 223 brass split in 2 firings, no wonder it was so cheap. I think the brass quality has the biggest effect on how long it will last. Much more than annealing vs not. I think most of us on here would be more interested in the effect on accuracy vs longevity. I think even with saami chambers quality brass is hard to wear out.

I have split my share of Lapua 6br, Alpha 6 Dasher, and LC+Starline in 223. Seems like after 4-6 loads those necks do not like to get spread. None were annealed (but shot great). I just started annealing so i will see if the trend stops.

 

[tom]

For those of you who have tested your group size differences with an AMP annealer vs flame annealer, would you be willing to share your findings?

Every technology that has come about, Ken Light, then Benchsource, and finally AMP, I have bought then tested then stuck back on the shelf. Not one size firs all, but with Dashers and now the BRA running 2.5 to 3.5 clearances, and between 1 and 6 thou tension, I haven't seen any benefits yet. If anything, I've always seen a drop off in precision with my stuff. I've not ever seen a split neck in the above condition either. It's right up there with overcomplicating seating a primer in my opinion.

Tom

 

[bozo699]

Every technology that has come about, Ken Light, then Benchsource, and finally AMP, I have bought then tested then stuck back on the shelf. Not one size firs all, but with Dashers and now the BRA running 2.5 to 3.5 clearances, and between 1 and 6 thou tension, I haven't seen any benefits yet. If anything, I've always seen a drop off in precision with my stuff. I've not ever seen a split neck in the above condition either. It's right up there with overcomplicating seating a primer in my opinion.

Tom

Tom,
You’re the reason I bought my Ken Light back in the day,…. Maybe I should have sat back and waited lol
Always good to hear your and Alex thoughts on these things
Wayne

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Every technology that has come about, Ken Light, then Benchsource, and finally AMP, I have bought then tested then stuck back on the shelf. Not one size firs all, but with Dashers and now the BRA running 2.5 to 3.5 clearances, and between 1 and 6 thou tension, I haven't seen any benefits yet. If anything, I've always seen a drop off in precision with my stuff. I've not ever seen a split neck in the above condition either. It's right up there with overcomplicating seating a primer in my opinion.

Tom

Tom You nailed it, it’s almost like people come here just to over overcomplicate things and see how high tech they can make something Sound And open a rabbit hole to pour money in.

 

[Ccrider]

@BartsBullets?

 

[Evan]

I have 150 pieces of 22BR brass with 32 reloads on it and never annealed. There was a period where the brass was changing and I had to retune: smaller bushing to get the tension back to where it would shoot and run the die down further to get the right shoulder bump, but I didn’t make any notes about exactly when this occurred, maybe reloads 8-10 or so. But it’s been stable since. I’m not anyone special, but I have shot some 3-5” groups at 1000yd and have been able to resolve changes on target when I make changes to my process.

Only tangentially related, but I just want to say that new shooters who have shown up at our 1k BR matches in recent years think they have to buy an AMP to shoot well consistently. Just something that is increasingly on my mind when discussions like this pop up.

 

[rijndael]

For those of you getting very high brass usage numbers, without annealing, are you using custom dies that match your chambers well?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I use a Harrells or bc die for the bra. It has to size enough to work. Too much is a rare problem. I run a 268 neck and 260 bushing. Lots of brass work.

 

[DocBII]

Good day,

I'm waiting on someone to anneal 200 or 300 cases to dead soft, then go through the process of sizing, expanding and then resizing in groups of 20. Size and expand each group a different number of times. One group for one cycle, one group for two cycles, etc. Then test each group for consistency within each group and between each group.

Some folks around here can afford 200 rounds. Not me.

Have fun,
DocBII

 

[JFrank]

For those of you getting very high brass usage numbers, without annealing, are you using custom dies that match your chambers well?

Semi custom, Harrel’s and Wilson

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Good day,

I'm waiting on someone to anneal 200 or 300 cases to dead soft, then go through the process of sizing, expanding and then resizing in groups of 20. Size and expand each group a different number of times. One group for one cycle, one group for two cycles, etc. Then test each group for consistency within each group and between each group.

Some folks around here can afford 200 rounds. Not me.

Have fun,
DocBII

my test will be something similar....starting from virgin there will be two sets of brass: annealed (amp) and not annealed.

each group will be fired probably 10x minimum, all data points will be recorded along the way before and after each firing.

will it be a conclusive test on wether you should anneal or not?

no, but I think it will be interesting to see every data point imaginable laid out at each firing....

 

[DocBII]

Braxton,

Not the same test. Mine would determine when and whether annealing makes a difference for a number and what number of cycles for a particular brand of brass and the cartridge.

Your test will only if consistent annealing makes any difference over a long period of reloading.

Have fun,
DocBII