AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[Evan]

For those of you getting very high brass usage numbers, without annealing, are you using custom dies that match your chambers well?

Redding type s, 247 bushing, 251 loaded, 254 neck chamber.

 

[JimPag]

I've shot against many people who bought the latest greatest equipment and their results were always the same. Their shooting ability was always sub par and always will be. I don't care what equipment you use or don't use, whether you anneal or not your shooting skills are only as good as your ability is.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Braxton,

Not the same test. Mine would determine when and whether annealing makes a difference for a number and what number of cycles for a particular brand of brass and the cartridge.

Your test will only if consistent annealing makes any difference over a long period of reloading.

Have fun,
DocBII

i'll be curious to see at what point the not annealed brass will start to settle in and see if the group and velocity data will reflect that.

for example the annealed brass make look better at first, but once the not annealed brass settles in it may take over in consistency.

since i don't plan on touching the load, you won't know if either one could benefit with tuning powder charge, seating depth, bushing size down the road, but i still think it will be interesting to see what happens

 

[Evan]

i'll be curious to see at what point the not annealed brass will start to settle in and see if the group and velocity data will reflect that.

for example the annealed brass make look better at first, but once the not annealed brass settles in it may take over in consistency.

since i don't plan on touching the load, you won't know if either one could benefit with tuning powder charge, seating depth, bushing size down the road, but i still think it will be interesting to see what happens

If you don’t touch the bushing, you may come to a point that the bullet will almost fall into the “sized” case. I started on 249 and had to keep transitioning down to 247 to maintain the same seating feel. I haven’t tried 249 again recently but at the time it felt really loose and my K&M barely registered 0.005 or 5lbs seating it. It likes ~40 best although the feel is what I’m paying attention to, not the number.

 

[DocBII]

Braxton,

Make the first group whatever you wish as a base group, then my way. If you do it my way and run for through the groups, you should see some periodicity. Might even reach more than 1k rounds over several cycles as an experiment for long lived cartridges.

I have a feeling this has been done by the majors before. I would guess Lapua has the best data, but some of the newer US manufacturers may have similar data.

Evan,

Good notation would help and add data for these tests. Changes to neck tension would have to be noted. Also, brass would need to be uniformed from the get-go. The recommendation for testing would assume brass prep such as weight, neck wall thickness, primer pockets, case volume and flash holes made as uniform as reasonable before setting the brass to a dead soft condition.

Have fun,
DocBII

 

[tom]

I've

Every technology that has come about, Ken Light, then Benchsource, and finally AMP, I have bought then tested then stuck back on the shelf. Not one size firs all, but with Dashers and now the BRA running 2.5 to 3.5 clearances, and between 1 and 6 thou tension, I haven't seen any benefits yet. If anything, I've always seen a drop off in precision with my stuff. I've not ever seen a split neck in the above condition either. It's right up there with overcomplicating seating a primer in my opinion.

Tom

Is it a bad sign to reply to yourself? Lol

I should also note that I've been beaten by people who anneal every time, shooting the same cartridge/powder/bullets. Both flame and Amp...Probably Jim Pag is about right on the subject.

Tom

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

If you don’t touch the bushing, you may come to a point that the bullet will almost fall into the “sized” case. I started on 249 and had to keep transitioning down to 247 to maintain the same seating feel. I haven’t tried 249 again recently but at the time it felt really loose and my K&M barely registered 0.005 or 5lbs seating it. It likes ~40 best although the feel is what I’m paying attention to, not the number.

Braxton,

Make the first group whatever you wish as a base group, then my way. If you do it my way and run for through the groups, you should see some periodicity. Might even reach more than 1k rounds over several cycles as an experiment for long lived cartridges.

I have a feeling this has been done by the majors before. I would guess Lapua has the best data, but some of the newer US manufacturers may have similar data.

Evan,

Good notation would help and add data for these tests. Changes to neck tension would have to be noted. Also, brass would need to be uniformed from the get-go. The recommendation for testing would assume brass prep such as weight, neck wall thickness, primer pockets, case volume and flash holes made as uniform as reasonable before setting the brass to a dead soft condition.

Have fun,
DocBII

yep, i'll have a few bushings on standby in anticipation for this, i will note when bushings need to be substituted to compensate for the additional springback.

i will also be making sure all of the test pieces will be completely identical in every aspect to try and reduce any changes due to some slight variations

 

[JFrank]

a bad sign to reply to yourself? Lol

For me it’s a sign of being married a long time.

 

[CharlieNC]

The effec of annealing is one of those "depends on" factors. If your combination of chamber, brass fit, pressure, etc provides consistent neck tension and seating depth without annealing, then annealing may not yield any benefit. On the other hand I began annealing after I experienced significant seating depth variability which was clearly associated with felt seating force differences. Annealing corrected that problem, a pure and simple fact, but not a universal requirement.

 

[jxb]

For me it’s a sign of being married a long time.

Must explain why I talk to myself and sometimes answer myself too.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Must explain why I talk to myself and sometimes answer myself too.

Well I talk to my gun and it barks back

 

[searcher]

my test is looking at mainly seating pressure and springback measurements, but if i need to shoot them to get measurements i might as well record groups and the other stuff as well.

as far as I know I have never seen anyone plot out seating force graphs over the life of the brass on the same graph.

i have seen some plots of annealed vs not annealed, but they were just one time plots, not over the life of the brass to see how well annealing/not annealing maintain consistency.

i'm mostly curious to see how non annealed brass acts, and if after say 3/4 firings the seating force plateaus and then maintains seating force consistency.

I greatly doubt you will see brass "plateau" after a relatively small number of firings - like 3 or 4. It is going to become increasingly hard on each firing, thereby affecting seating force incrementally. Most brass is not going to harden equally, just as they won't all anneal exactly the same, even with the AMP. The AMP can make the average considerably more repeatable when the lot is annealed each time.

I think it is without question that annealing makes for better, more consistent bullet release, but only if the annealing is also consistent. And the trick with flame annealers is getting the heat exactly the same each time the cases are annealed. And the AMP surely has the decisive edge there. The tests with seating force are real and show real numbers. How that exactly translates to better accuracy is probably not really seen by many people unless they have a very accurate rifle and are able to determine, after many groups, that there is improvement. Consider a rifle already able to shoot in the low 1's. Measuring an actual improvement from using the AMP is not going to be a cut and dry deal after shooting a handful of groups. I'd expect long distance shooters to see less variation in vertical spread with the AMP for sure, though.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I greatly doubt you will see brass "plateau" after a relatively small number of firings - like 3 or 4. It is going to become increasingly hard on each firing, thereby affecting seating force incrementally. Most brass is not going to harden equally, just as they won't all anneal exactly the same, even with the AMP. The AMP can make the average considerably more repeatable when the lot is annealed each time.

I think it is without question that annealing makes for better, more consistent bullet release, but only if the annealing is also consistent. And the trick with flame annealers is getting the heat exactly the same each time the cases are annealed. And the AMP surely has the decisive edge there. The tests with seating force are real and show real numbers. How that exactly translates to better accuracy is probably not really seen by many people unless they have a very accurate rifle and are able to determine, after many groups, that there is improvement. Consider a rifle already able to shoot in the low 1's. Measuring an actual improvement from using the AMP is not going to be a cut and dry deal after shooting a handful of groups. I'd expect long distance shooters to see less variation in vertical spread with the AMP for sure, though.

i'll do as many firings as it takes for the hardness / seating force to plateau. i want to get a really good track of what happens til it plateaus

 

[Pete Wass]

There is a Youtube of Lou Merdica shooting in his tunnel. He uses the same case and shoots it to demonstrate before and after annealing, I seem to remember but it's been a long time. At the end Lou sez, "anneal every time or don't anneal at all".

P.S. He is using an AMP annealer.

 

[rijndael]

There is a Youtube of Lou Merdica shooting in his tunnel.

It's covered here: https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/58/annealing-under-the-microscope/

Which is what sparked me to make this thread.

 

[Pete Wass]

It's covered here: https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/58/annealing-under-the-microscope/

Which is what sparked me to make this thread.

Thanks for this.

 

[Webster]

i'm going to start a series with my new br dasher build on youtube. i think i'm going to break in the barrel by doing a bunch of random testing with annealing on some new alpha brass.

i was debating doing flame, but it would be something like this:

starting with all virgin brass, 3 cases in each set.

unannealed
amp annealed
flame annealed

after each firing, i will be recording group size, velocity, amp press graph force, shoulder bump, and neck spring back.

repeat this probably 5 times each

let me know if you all would like to see this done. i am open to any other ideas as well.

Don't forget to show us group size for each condition. All the numbers mean nothing if the groups are not small.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Don't forget to show us group size for each condition. All the numbers mean nothing if the groups are not small.

although I am excited to see, i'm not super concerned about group size for this test, i'm mainly concerned about obtaining the other metrics.

i will be including group size as a serious metric, but according to the input from many members here, world class precision can be obtained either way.

I really want to see how consistent the amp keeps the brass and i want to use the amp as a baseline to see the effects of the cold working dynamics of the unannealed brass until it settles in.

for any of those wondering, the "test gun" is a drop port borden brmxd bedded and glued and screwed into a cerus XR stock, brux 7.83 twist 4 groove, alpha no turn reamer (0.120 fb), nightforce comp scope, berger 105 hybrids, 21st century front rest, dr flat top rear bag. smith work done by @Greg Taylor

 

[JFrank]

@Benchrest Braxton
Which Benchrest disciple do you compete in Long range, short range , mid range ? IBS , NBRSA ? Freedom ?

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

@Benchrest Braxton
Which Benchrest disciple do you compete in Long range, short range , mid range ? IBS , NBRSA ? Freedom ?

none currently sir, I wanted to start competing this year at MCSA here in PA, which they have groundhog score matches (200,300,500) and 600 yard IBS style matches (no longer sanctioned by IBS). Maybe get involved at Williamsport down the road.

This year is tough for me with all the OT at work (wife wanting lots of home improvements) and being a night shifter, but hope to come out swinging next year.

I do have a 300-500 yard backyard range that I shoot at when I get some spare minutes in the day in which I will conduct my testing.