AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[Bottom Fodder]

^^^^^^^ what Alex just said is more meaningful to me than all the other post
its like every other thing we do in the reloading room which is fined what your gun likes.

 

[rijndael]

its like every other thing we do in the reloading room which is fined what your gun likes.

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

 

[bozo699]

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

I believe there’s a few out here providing annealing services DJ may be one of them, if you don’t want to test for $1700 and I don’t blame ya have them anneal your brass and see if it helps or hinders?…
Wayne

 

[Pete Wass]

This last part simply isn’t true.

I disagree. Think about it again.

 

[Pete Wass]

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

There isn't much, if any guessing. These machines have been in production plenty long enough to have bad reports out there. My first experience with an AMP one of my friends has. I went to his house and did 100 pieces and that made a huge impression, to the point I bought one. I could have used his any time but I wanted my own and there is that Nursing Home thing .

 

[rijndael]

There isn't much, if any guessing. These machines have been in production plenty long enough to have bad reports out there.

The comment about guessing was in the context of flame or other methods (salt) annealing, and when proper anneal has been reached.

It wasn't about the AMP machine's efficacy or durability.

 

[Pete Wass]

Not exactly in this vane but the question of neck tension. I have watched a couple of videos about testing neck tensions. One presenter had a line chart, computer generated. He came up with .002" set with a mandrill, as giving the most accuracy. I bought into it. As far as I can tell that setting does produce great results. Only adds 1 step to loading. Here's where consistent annealing come in. To hold .002" one really needs soft necks.

 

[JimPag]

Yes this is true BUT Tony didn't use his brass like we do, from what I've read 4 firings was a lot for him and he got FREE Lapua brass, I don't.

He used his brass more than you think he did or what you read. I got that from the horse's mouth and yes he did get his brass for free and also his N133 that he used.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

well if I had to pay $1700 for a annealer there is a 99% chance I would not anneal

 

[Pete Wass]

The comment about guessing was in the context of flame or other methods (salt) annealing, and when proper anneal has been reached.

It wasn't about the AMP machine's efficacy or durability.

I've been through the others as I have stated elsewhere. I gave my Salt Bath stuff away last year and I never liked the results from the Ken Light machine. Some of us have been through a LOT!

 

[bozo699]

I've been through the others as I have stated elsewhere. I gave my Salt Bath stuff away last year and I never liked the results from the Ken Light machine. Some of us have been through a LOT!

I have two Ken light machines and for me has done a great job but there’s many other options. If you decide to sell your Ken Light let me know if you have wheels I don’t have I would be interested
Wayne

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Hi Pete ,
I wasn’t even going to respond any further to this thread but since we’re already off topic, WTH.
Braxton posted this ;
Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

I don’t share the results of this blanket statement. That’s all I can go on, I won’t dispute if your results are different I can only speak of my own.
Jim

i should have added a little more to my statement when I was referring to the bushings and mandrels.

you will need to move more brass with unannealed (yield the brass into plastic deformation past its higher elastic state) to achieve the same interference fit.

if you don't move (yield) the brass enough its just going to spring back to where it was.

this is nothing that can't be compensated for, but it is an effect that should be kept in mind if your interference fit is changing as the brass continues to harden up.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Im sure you will see a difference if you test this. Theres a difference just in how much you anneal. I shot a lot of annealed vs non annealed test in many different cartridges. All long range stuff. I also get all the feedback from customers so I get to see what guys are doing that are having success all over the country. Based on all of that I will say that you can do it both ways. You can have equal success annealing or not annealing. You ma come to a conclusion that annealing is better or that it hurt accuracy in your rifle. But in the next one the results can flip. If the same size is large enough your going to see that. Now personally I do not anneal. I never got improvement on target. In many cases it didnt hurt though. When I compare my process to others who are having success with annealing I do see some differences. Ill use the BRA for an example. I tend to run a lot of neck tension and I like the high node. When I look at the guys that are shooting small annealing, they are running half as much neck tension and are on the low node. There are probably some other differences but those are the most common ones. The cases that I could not shoot the difference in liked really light neck tension. My 338 lapua imp is a good example, the lighter you go the better and annealed brass shot great. My point is that any test you do will apply to your setup only. You cant come to conclusions based on others. You need to test this for yourself. Annealing effects neck tension and its part of your tune. Test it, and test your neck bushings too. It should be looked at like seating depth and powder charge. Just another part of the tune

the only thing i really want to see with this test is the point at which unannealed brass starts to reach a point of equilibrium of hardness.

starting from virgin, each subsequent sizing/firing will work harden the brass more and more. I want to see and measure the effects this has on seating force and spring back vs annealed brass. And I want to see how many firings it takes til the hardness "settles down".

its just something that went through my head that I would like to see some data on.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I know some guys have pushed it way out there. I think @tom Has BRA brass with probably 40ish on it and Donovan had some Dasher brass with 100+. It does seem like around 8 firings things settle in but Im sure thats lot specific too.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I know some guys have pushed it way out there. I think @tom Has BRA brass with probably 40ish on it and Donovan had some Dasher brass with 100+. It does seem like around 8 firings things settle in but Im sure thats lot specific too.

thank you for the input Alex, that is a very impressive amount of cycles without annealing!

Like you said, there are alot of variables that will determine the rate at which the brass work hardens depending on specific brass and ones own sizing process, but I think it will be very interesting to see a good visual representation of the data from what is going on between virgin and a state of hardness equilibrium.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

With quality brass I cant remember a neck splitting. I had 223 brass split in 2 firings, no wonder it was so cheap. I think the brass quality has the biggest effect on how long it will last. Much more than annealing vs not. I think most of us on here would be more interested in the effect on accuracy vs longevity. I think even with saami chambers quality brass is hard to wear out.

 

[shoot4fun]

With quality brass I cant remember a neck splitting. I had 223 brass split in 2 firings, no wonder it was so cheap. I think the brass quality has the biggest effect on how long it will last. Much more than annealing vs not. I think most of us on here would be more interested in the effect on accuracy vs longevity. I think even with saami chambers quality brass is hard to wear out.

This!!!!!

 

[Cfshooter]

With quality brass I cant remember a neck splitting. I had 223 brass split in 2 firings, no wonder it was so cheap. I think the brass quality has the biggest effect on how long it will last. Much more than annealing vs not. I think most of us on here would be more interested in the effect on accuracy vs longevity. I think even with saami chambers quality brass is hard to wear out.

I have split my share of Lapua 6br, Alpha 6 Dasher, and LC+Starline in 223. Seems like after 4-6 loads those necks do not like to get spread. None were annealed (but shot great). I just started annealing so i will see if the trend stops.

 

[tom]

For those of you who have tested your group size differences with an AMP annealer vs flame annealer, would you be willing to share your findings?

Every technology that has come about, Ken Light, then Benchsource, and finally AMP, I have bought then tested then stuck back on the shelf. Not one size firs all, but with Dashers and now the BRA running 2.5 to 3.5 clearances, and between 1 and 6 thou tension, I haven't seen any benefits yet. If anything, I've always seen a drop off in precision with my stuff. I've not ever seen a split neck in the above condition either. It's right up there with overcomplicating seating a primer in my opinion.

Tom

 

[bozo699]

Every technology that has come about, Ken Light, then Benchsource, and finally AMP, I have bought then tested then stuck back on the shelf. Not one size firs all, but with Dashers and now the BRA running 2.5 to 3.5 clearances, and between 1 and 6 thou tension, I haven't seen any benefits yet. If anything, I've always seen a drop off in precision with my stuff. I've not ever seen a split neck in the above condition either. It's right up there with overcomplicating seating a primer in my opinion.

Tom

Tom,
You’re the reason I bought my Ken Light back in the day,…. Maybe I should have sat back and waited lol
Always good to hear your and Alex thoughts on these things
Wayne