AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[Benchrest Braxton]

Braxton,
I’m no metallurgist but I know when my brass is under annealed, annealed or over annealed. I’m not trying to be argumentative with you either but by your own admission your not a accomplished shooter which would indicate your not a accomplishment reloader which also tells me you can’t do these kind of comparisons with any sort of accuracy for a end results in your tests. The answers and statements you’re making im guessing have came straight off the internet. I have been doing this a long time and there’s guys on this forum that’s wayyyyyy more accomplished than I am. You can’t do a definitive test with 20 rounds and a day or two at the range!… this will take experience and time jmho best of luck to ya
Wayne

thanks wayne, i promise that everything i do it is to the best of my ability and will be good honest info. this test won't be for a while yet, but when its done it will be good information for however one wants to view it. again, i have no dog in any sort of fight, i just love testing and sharing my findings and discussing this stuff, no sort of ill intentions.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I say test away and please share your results. Don’t be offended because someone questions or disagrees with you. Most of us are here to learn and share our successes and failures. Either way, with an open mind, you can learn through the process.

i am all about keeping an open mind and constructive criticism, thats the only way to keep advancing. i wish the people on here knew me personally, because i promise i am only here with the best intentions for the sport. i will bend over backwards to help anyone out any way i can.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I was thinking that. Thanks for saying it.

Numerous times when not annealing, I have gotten to the point to where the hardened brass would not even hold the bullet so I had to use smaller bushings.

This last part simply isn’t true.

please explain to me where I am incorrect.....

the reason why you had to use a smaller bushing to hold your bullet is because your work hardened brass is springing back the opposite direction of the bushing (like i said) and is producing the effect of using a larger bushing (less neck tension).

annealed brass will barely spring back (0-0.0005") and very work hardened brass will spring back (0.001-0.002"). you will need to use smaller bushings/larger mandrels at some point to overcome the elastic deformation/yield point of hardened brass compared to annealed.

 

[Ccrider]

please explain to me where I am incorrect.....

the reason why you had to use a smaller bushing to hold your bullet is because your work hardened brass is springing back the opposite direction of the bushing (like i said) and is producing the effect of using a larger bushing (less neck tension).

annealed brass will barely spring back (0-0.0005") and very work hardened brass will spring back (0.001-0.002"). you will need to use smaller bushings/larger mandrels at some point to overcome the elastic deformation/yield point of hardened brass compared to annealed.

My thought is that the harder the brass gets, the harder it is to size, so that when you move it in with a bushing or out with a mandrel, rather than springing back, it stays where it is.

So, when you size hardened brass with a neck bushing, and then insert the bullet, ie, a mandrel, the brass opens up to the size of the bullet with less neck tension or hold.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

couldn't you just make up for the reduced hardness in the neck a tighter bushing? @Alex Wheeler

View attachment 1547090

Not really.

 

[Straightshooter1]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

Apparently, there's a misunderstanding as to to relationship for "elastic" to being "springy", huh?

"Hardened brass" resists movement and wants to retain its shape when force is applied to it and the term "springy" can mean how far the material can bend before it doesn't return to its original shape, which is what I hear you saying. Annealing makes the brass more "elastic", meaning it's less resistant to movement. Like, fully annealed brass has little resistance to movement and will be more like damp clay. What we try to achieve when annealing our brass is something in-between "hardened brass" and fully annealed brass. The main goal is for consistency in how the neck holds the bullet, but not so loose that the bullet will move in the magazine due to recoil or for any other reason before being fired.

Bottom line . . . our annealing process makes the brass more elastic and less "springy".

PS
A much more technical way of saying the same thing :
"The amount of stress required to produce a unit of strain is known as the elastic modulus (sometimes called Young's modulus). The elastic modulus is different for different metals. A high modulus means the material is stiff. Steel's modulus is roughly three times that of aluminum, and twice that of brass, for example.

Once you cross the yield point, you begin to add plastic strain to the elastic strain. The plastic portion will not spring back. It's permanent. The elastic portion, however, will still spring back even if you have crossed the yield point. Above the yield point, the relationship between stress and strain is no longer linear - the elastic modulus is no longer valid. After the yield point, it takes much less stress (and therefore holding force) to produce a unit of strain."

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

My thought is that the harder the brass gets, the harder it is to size, so that when you move it in with a bushing or out with a mandrel, rather than speeding back, it stays where it is.

So, when you size hardened brass with a neck bushing, and then insert the bullet, ie, a mandrel, the brass opens up to the size of the bullet with less neck tension or hold.

correct, the hardened brass is trying to stay where it is because of its increased elastic properties/stored energy.

as the the brass gets worked more and more towards 100% cold worked (spring hard), you need to move (yield) the brass more than you would annealed brass to get it to stay where you want.

the only reason you wouldn't be able to get good neck tension with hardened brass is because your old bushing that was working well with softer brass, isn't moving the hardened brass enough to make the interference fit the same.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Apparently, there's a misunderstanding as to to relationship for "elastic" to being "springy", huh?

"Hardened brass" resists movement and wants to retain its shape when force is applied to it and the term "springy" can mean how far the material can bend before it doesn't return to its original shape, which is what I hear you saying. Annealing makes the brass more "elastic", meaning it's less resistant to movement. Like, fully annealed brass has little resistance to movement and will be more like damp clay. What we try to achieve when annealing our brass is something in-between "hardened brass" and fully annealed brass. The main goal is for consistency in how the neck holds the bullet, but not so loose that the bullet will move in the magazine due to recoil or for any other reason before being fired.

Bottom line . . . our annealing process makes the brass more elastic and less "springy".

you are misunderstanding what the meaning of elasticity is, a material can have a low or high modulus of elasticity depending on its hardness.....

i agree with you, just a little misunderstanding on the terms we are using.

Case Neck Tension - A Stress Analysis

Neck Tension and Case Hardness

bisonballistics.com

@damoncali

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Not really.

i get what you are saying, thanks alex

 

[JFrank]

Again, this is simply not true.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Again, this is simply not true.

explain to me then how its not true

 

[B y r o n]

The process you use to anneal your brass simply has to be consistent. Flame with Templaq or simply timed or Amp annealed, it just needs to be consistent. The more consistent the better the accuracy.

 

[JFrank]

explain to me then how its not true

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass as you describe . I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

 

[Bob in WI]

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass. I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

Some people just seem dead set on preaching their point of view of what they read vs listening to what real world shooters / reloaders are experiencing. I have noticed that a few times in this thread.
Guessing there will be a rebutal forthcoming..

 

[Straightshooter1]

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass. I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

Not experiencing spring-back suggests to me a custom chamber and sizing dies that don't move the neck or shoulder much when your cartridges are fired. The more movement that's incurred from firing and then sizing, the more work hardening that takes place resulting in some amount of spring-back. It's simply laws of physics. And though it's possible to not experience spring-back that's noticeable, it's not possible to not get work hardening of your cases. . . .just not as much as those with chambers that move the brass a lot more. If you're unaware of the work hardening taking place, it's probably because you don't have the equipment to measure the Vicker's hardness to really know how much working hardening that's actually taking place. . .???

 

[Ccrider]

I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass.

Just curious, how much are you moving your shoulders and necks when sizing? I know that some of the best shooters do not anneal but also know that their reloading process is well refined.

Records have been set by those that don’t anneal and by those that do. The common denominators are excellent shooters and reloaders using excellent equipment. Not so much annealing or not annealing.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass. I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

I was thinking that. Thanks for saying it.

Numerous times when not annealing, I have gotten to the point to where the hardened brass would not even hold the bullet so I had to use smaller bushings.

here is a member who is claiming he experienced some sizing changes due to work hardening of the brass.

clearly, your brass has reached a state of equilibrium with the hardness after many firings and you have refined/adapted for it in such a way that you just aren't noticing it/affecting you anymore.

but if you set up for annealed, and then switched over to no longer annealing, you would slowly begin to notice changes due to the work hardening.

 

[Ccrider]

If you shout then same brass enough times and size it down enough, you see something that I call work hardening. The main thing for me is that it affects how the rifle shoots. Use custom fitted dies moving the shoulders less than .002 and sizing the necks to the minimum and, keep your brass in the same rotation and you will not need to anneal.

The sloppier your process is, the more benefit you will likely get from annealing.

 

[JimPag]

Well somebody should tell Tony Boyer that he would of been a better shooter if he annealed his brass because he told me he never ever annealed his at all.

 

[JFrank]

Again, you’re telling me what’s going on in my reloading room without having any personal knowledge. Go back and read post 24 and 29 where I suggest one takes brass with a history of shooting well and do some testing of their own and post the results. Then you have your findings for your set up and state it as such.