Accuracy of electronic targets

[chkunz]

This is obviously an important topic from all the responses that have been made so far. Bryan's original topic of this thread was accuracy but the interest in operational and maintenance concerns of ETs has taken this thread well beyond his original theme.

For me, not going to the pits is an overwhelming positive in favor of ETs and therefore I am pulling for ETs to succeed and become very economical and low maintenance and I expect this will happen in time. The second biggest advantage is the elimination the poor pit service and human error that we have now in the pits especially with the new shooters as they learn but even with some of the more experienced folks from time to time. The third biggest positive for me is to be able to watch the group form during slow fire prone without having to plot my shots. The issue of not being able to chase the spotter on the target thru the scope would be a negative for me but probably not an overwhelming issue since some folks with experience have reported that they can do this ok by looking at a monitor, I shoot the NRA conventional prone position (sling) and keep the rifle in my shoulder and shoot fast so I may have to adapt somewhat.

We do not see many new ranges being build these days and the cost of building the pits is a significant factor. As the cost of ETs comes down there will be a point that this will be a deciding factor in the decision of building a new range.

I am pulling hard for the ETs.

 

[Steve Blair]

We do not see many new ranges being build these days and the cost of building the pits is a significant factor. As the cost of ETs comes down there will be a point that this will be a deciding factor in the decision of building a new range.

[br]
How do ET's eliminate pits? Don't you need elevating target frames, target faces, storage, protection, etc.?

 

[DBailey]

More than one F-Class match has been lost by a fraction of an inch.

NOT talking about accuracy David. Talking about offset. The accuarracy is better than you can see. Or maybe your experience with electronic targets are more than mine... and if so I will stand corrected.

Russel

Hi Russel, I have no experience with electronic targets. It is the potential horizontal target offset that causes me concern. Below is a crude attempt to explain why target offset concerns me.



Black is Aiming Target. Red is Acoustic Offset Representation. Green Arrow shows POA-POI for Left to Right Wind. Blue Arrow shows POA-POI in Right to Left Wind Switch. Purple Arrows show how the Effect of the Offset Doubles when you Crossover.
Basically I'm trying to say 1/8 MOA offset could translate into a 1/4 MOA difference in impact when you cross over.

 

[aj300mag]

One of the benefits of ET's (at least the Silver Mountain) is that you can save a shot string to a file for later viewing.

I was looking at our local club's website today and see where our board of directors has approved the purchase of five ETs. They've put down a deposit on the system and hope to having it up and running in time for our '16 summer league.

 

[spclark]

I was looking at our local club's website today....

And what (location) club might it be that you're referring to?

 

[aj300mag]

I was looking at our local club's website today....

And what (location) club might it be that you're referring to?

Midland County Sportsman's Club, Midland MI.

Ray Gross has been instrumental in getting the club to purchase these targets. I think that if there was an issue with POA/POI offset Ray wouldn't be supporting the purchase.

 

[Bindi2]

More than one F-Class match has been lost by a fraction of an inch.

NOT talking about accuracy David. Talking about offset. The accuarracy is better than you can see. Or maybe your experience with electronic targets are more than mine... and if so I will stand corrected.

Russel

Hi Russel, I have no experience with electronic targets. It is the potential horizontal target offset that causes me concern. Below is a crude attempt to explain why target offset concerns me.



Black is Aiming Target. Red is Acoustic Offset Representation. Green Arrow shows POA-POI for Left to Right Wind. Blue Arrow shows POA-POI in Right to Left Wind Switch. Purple Arrows show how the Effect of the Offset Doubles when you Crossover.
Basically I'm trying to say 1/8 MOA offset could translate into a 1/4 MOA difference in impact when you cross over.

The aiming mark is just that it is not the scoring target. It is used as a measuring tool. The virtual target is the scoring target. There is no offset difference. The virtual does not move nor do the measuring points. Acoustic centre out to each ring does not move or distort.

 

[DBailey]

The aiming mark is just that it is not the scoring target. It is used as a measuring tool. The virtual target is the scoring target. There is no offset difference. The virtual does not move nor do the measuring points. Acoustic centre out to each ring does not move or distort.

I understand that the aiming mark is not the scoring target. That is my source of concern. I also understand that people are not perfect and can make mistakes when setting up equipment and while doing simple tasks such as pasting on a new repair center which could be a potential source of horizontal target offset. I also understand that your mind is made up.

 

[Dgd6mm]

That is why you need an OCD person with perfect layout skills to set them up and paste targets. They will get them perfect every time. ;D

 

[Bindi2]

I understand that the aiming mark is not the scoring target. That is my source of concern. I also understand that people are not perfect and can make mistakes when setting up equipment and while doing simple tasks such as pasting on a new repair center which could be a potential source of horizontal target offset. I also understand that your mind is made up.
[/quote]

When you have shot on and done the maintenance on ETs as long as I have you will understand. Lack of or poor maintenance is the only concern I have.
With paper targets maintenance is done with every patch. When to do ETs is more about preventative so there is no problems. An example being the shot count on a target is 1,000 and the up coming match is 800 and you know that the target begins to have problems @ 1500 with 10oclock to 2oclock wind and that is what is forecast do an early mild rebuild. Major competitions should start on new targets (rebuilt) and be able to have a mild rebuild if needed (less than 5 minutes per target). Wind is the problem keep it out.
Kongsberg is the system we use.

POA= where the barrel is pointing which coincides with the POL on the zero range
POL= is where you are looking through your scope which is adjusted to hit a certain area. The adjustments are the same if you keep looking at the same place. The monitor shows where you have hit in relation to the area which we all want to hit ( 1st sighter) make an adjustment fire hit the area and you have a keeper. Aim offs are the same even to using the next door target as a aiming mark. ( High winds non winder shooter) to far for me. Scored that shoot.
POI= where the bullet hits

 

[Dos XX]

Wind is the problem keep it out.

Tee shirts should be made.

 

[Down South]

Wind is the problem keep it out.

Tee shirts should be made.

;D ;D ;D

 

[Zilla]

POL= is where you are looking through your scope which is adjusted to hit a certain area. The adjustments are the same if you keep looking at the same place. The monitor shows where you have hit in relation to the area which we all want to hit ( 1st sighter) make an adjustment fire hit the area and you have a keeper. Aim offs are the same even to using the next door target as a aiming mark. ( High winds non winder shooter) to far for me. Scored that shoot.

WTF?

 

[Warren Dean]

POL= is where you are looking through your scope which is adjusted to hit a certain area. The adjustments are the same if you keep looking at the same place. The monitor shows where you have hit in relation to the area which we all want to hit ( 1st sighter) make an adjustment fire hit the area and you have a keeper. Aim offs are the same even to using the next door target as a aiming mark. ( High winds non winder shooter) to far for me. Scored that shoot.

WTF?

Yeah...WTF??? I been to 2 county fairs and a goat ropin' and I ain't never seen no stuff like that before.

 

[Bob Sebold]

Some things you will not have to worry about at lodi in 2016: Bad pit service or different than anybody else's. That alone should shut up the doubters. Cross fires work exactly like they do with pit pullers. You would get two scores that show up and the shooter gets the higher one. If you can shoot within 8 nano seconds of your neighbor-try it once- you might be able to get away with it IF your scorer is asleep.

You will not be hit by anything in the pits, I will appreciate that after having the inside of my elbow cored out at the Midwest Palma. You will be able to BS at your leisure during pit duty without having the problem of people shooting while you are talking-Earl- . Mr Danny B!, I know you live to pull targets. We can run one manually for you if you can get some others who want to go on your target!

I do not know anyone on this planet that can run a rifle match better than Earl Liebetrau. I have shot enough other places in my life to know he is capable. I have spoken with other shooters from around the world who said they have never seen better run matches. Who the hell else would YOU want to run this for the first time. I can't think of anyone. Just an FYI, Lodi will be investing a great deal extra in these targets so they can handle at least 50 at one time. It costs more to run more targets, not less. We will have a large dedicated server on a pole hard wired to handle all these targets.

There really isn't anything you guys can think of that hasn't already been answered by the folks making these targets. But just so you know, the makers will be there for the nationals to ensure all goes well. There will be some time for training as well. It is not hard. Sadly, there still may be a couple of dumb shooters out there, it happens every match. This will be no different. I do not know much about the technical stuff in life. Its not my bag, but I was able to shoot on these targets with absolutely no problem. You can see what you want to, scoring is easy, the only down side is no pit service. Ain't life a bitch!

 

[chkunz]

"Be not the first the new to try nor the last the old to lay aside", Granny Kunz, circa 1950. As I have said, I am pulling hard for ETs!

 

[6BRinNZ]

There really isn't anything you guys can think of that hasn't already been answered by the folks making these targets.

Out of interest only (already shoot on ETs) what is the approach for shooters display? BYOD or event supplied?

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Some things you will not have to worry about at lodi in 2016: Bad pit service or different than anybody else's. That alone should shut up the doubters. Cross fires work exactly like they do with pit pullers. You would get two scores that show up and the shooter gets the higher one. If you can shoot within 8 nano seconds of your neighbor-try it once- you might be able to get away with it IF your scorer is asleep.

You will not be hit by anything in the pits, I will appreciate that after having the inside of my elbow cored out at the Midwest Palma. You will be able to BS at your leisure during pit duty without having the problem of people shooting while you are talking-Earl- . Mr Danny B!, I know you live to pull targets. We can run one manually for you if you can get some others who want to go on your target!

I do not know anyone on this planet that can run a rifle match better than Earl Liebetrau. I have shot enough other places in my life to know he is capable. I have spoken with other shooters from around the world who said they have never seen better run matches. Who the hell else would YOU want to run this for the first time. I can't think of anyone. Just an FYI, Lodi will be investing a great deal extra in these targets so they can handle at least 50 at one time. It costs more to run more targets, not less. We will have a large dedicated server on a pole hard wired to handle all these targets.

There really isn't anything you guys can think of that hasn't already been answered by the folks making these targets. But just so you know, the makers will be there for the nationals to ensure all goes well. There will be some time for training as well. It is not hard. Sadly, there still may be a couple of dumb shooters out there, it happens every match. This will be no different. I do not know much about the technical stuff in life. Its not my bag, but I was able to shoot on these targets with absolutely no problem. You can see what you want to, scoring is easy, the only down side is no pit service. Ain't life a bitch!

Just go ahead and set one up, Bob. 8) Murphy, Bartholome, Bock, and Nagel, will just jump at the chance to pull targets with me, don't you know!? ;D

Dan

 

[Warren Dean]

Some things you will not have to worry about at lodi in 2016: Bad pit service or different than anybody else's. That alone should shut up the doubters. Cross fires work exactly like they do with pit pullers. You would get two scores that show up and the shooter gets the higher one. If you can shoot within 8 nano seconds of your neighbor-try it once- you might be able to get away with it IF your scorer is asleep.

You will not be hit by anything in the pits, I will appreciate that after having the inside of my elbow cored out at the Midwest Palma. You will be able to BS at your leisure during pit duty without having the problem of people shooting while you are talking-Earl- . Mr Danny B!, I know you live to pull targets. We can run one manually for you if you can get some others who want to go on your target!

I do not know anyone on this planet that can run a rifle match better than Earl Liebetrau. I have shot enough other places in my life to know he is capable. I have spoken with other shooters from around the world who said they have never seen better run matches. Who the hell else would YOU want to run this for the first time. I can't think of anyone. Just an FYI, Lodi will be investing a great deal extra in these targets so they can handle at least 50 at one time. It costs more to run more targets, not less. We will have a large dedicated server on a pole hard wired to handle all these targets.

There really isn't anything you guys can think of that hasn't already been answered by the folks making these targets. But just so you know, the makers will be there for the nationals to ensure all goes well. There will be some time for training as well. It is not hard. Sadly, there still may be a couple of dumb shooters out there, it happens every match. This will be no different. I do not know much about the technical stuff in life. Its not my bag, but I was able to shoot on these targets with absolutely no problem. You can see what you want to, scoring is easy, the only down side is no pit service. Ain't life a bitch!

Well said, Bob. I am glad that Winnequah has the foresight and stones to go ahead with the ETs despite the whiners.

If they don't like the idea of electronic targets, I guess they can stay home.

 

[spclark]

Got wind of a side-by-side 'evaluation' between HEXTA and SMT systems last Sunday.

No details as to where or outcome so if anybody here reading this was there in some capacity (hopefully as a shooter!) your feedback might be of interest.