Electronic Targets

[gmitchell]

The Hexta system has a website and anyone can log on anywhere in the world and view the shooters scores which are uploaded to the web site.

So this is like scoring in real time, online? I have been waiting for the day a system like this would come out. I had no idea it would cost over 100K for a 20 bench range. Our clubs goal is to promote shooting sports not profit from them. I don't think our old timers at our club would part with that kind of money for targets.

And could e targets eliminate the need for live pits and carriers?

Gordy

 

[Bindi2]

The Hexta system has a website and anyone can log on anywhere in the world and view the shooters scores which are uploaded to the web site.

So this is like scoring in real time, online? I have been waiting for the day a system like this would come out. I had no idea it would cost over 100K for a 20 bench range. Our clubs goal is to promote shooting sports not profit from them. I don't think our old timers at our club would part with that kind of money for targets.

And could e targets eliminate the need for live pits and carriers?

Gordy

Yes nobody in the pits on club days. But do like to have somebody (2) down there for big matches as maintenance is required some times.

 

[BradY]

We are able to shoot 1000yd BR matches on our kongsberg ET's. Its good at a club level however to be part of the IBS postal matches between Aus and USA, we need to shoot on paper targets as from what Ive been told IBS doesnt recognise ET's yet. Something to think about.

For club level shooting, they are a fantastic tool to have- increasing numbers, increasing members who stay on and reduce manual handling by not having to raise and lower targets and moving them away all the time.

 

[daniel.chisholm]

And could e targets eliminate the need for live pits and carriers?

Yes, and if you are building a new range or expanding an existing range, the savings from not having to build a man-safe pits can pay for some or even all of the cost of an e-target system.

Another range layout possibility that e-targets offer is that you can install your targets at several different downrange locations (subject to local range inspection standards of course), and fire from a single location. This allows you to shoot simultaneously at several different distances, and not have *any* range downtime for moving match officials and shooters to different yard lines. For example an across-the-course match could have some targets set up 200y downrange, some more targets set up 300y downrange, and a final set of targets 600y away - then conduct the entire day's shooting from that location only. And if you are firing from a single location, you can consider building a shelter structure there, which can make the whole day's events much more comfortable.

 

[Coolhand]

The clubs here that now have E Targets will not profit from the use other than to save, not having to pay markers which was costing us $80-120 dollars per saturday. My club is fairly small and we were lucky that the members got on board and voted to contribute a fair amount of our bank balance toward the short fall.
Yesterday was the second shoot in which the E Target was used , I questioned all our club members and did not hear one negative comment. The use of E Targets has significantly lessened the time for each shooter on the mound and it was noticeable that the clubs with E Targets had completed 2 strings and were packing up and leaving well before the other clubs still using paper targets manually pulled.
Our club has adopted the practice of removing the target after shooting and storing it away out of the weather, it is after all the heart of the system and costly to repair. But we are having some purpose built all weather covers made which will allow the targets to remain in the pit. The target frame from memory weighs approx 40 kilos and is unwieldy, a job for two men to put up and pull down.
As I mentioned in the previous post anybody around the world can view a shooters scores which are uploaded to the Hexta web site(http://www.hexsystems.com.au/ immediately after the shoot and a one can select a shooter and view a mirror image of the shot screen as well as print off an exact image of the shot strings for his or her records. This image has all the shots recorded ( of course) the score per shot and the elapsed time between shots. I also forgot to mention that as a shot is registered on the target monitor and electronic voice 'calls' the score.
Some but not all shooters still take their spotting scope to the mound just to keep an eye on the mirage.
I can see a real benefit to shooters like myself that do not break from the prone position whilst reloading, in good steady conditions I suggest that a shooter could easily put down 10 rounds in under 5 minutes. Also I think the F Class shooters will be able to fairly rattle down a string by not having to wait for the target to be pulled.

regards
Mike.

 

[gaboon]

ETs are nice. But I would like to see what NRA comp committee says if more and more are used. When scores go up and people are done with their string in 3-5 mins. Where is the challenge,sport ,and comradery is going to fit in this new upcomming format. I ride in horse shows and seen stuff like this turn the activity in whole different attitude to the bad.

 

[Bindi2]

ETs are nice. But I would like to see what NRA comp committee says if more and more are used. When scores go up and people are done with their string in 3-5 mins. Where is the challenge,sport ,and comradery is going to fit in this new upcomming format. I ride in horse shows and seen stuff like this turn the activity in whole different attitude to the bad.

Nothing has changed except the scores and shooters numbers have gone up and that aint bad. The perfect score is still out there some where though some have been very close. When it happens the score rings will be made smaller as has been done in the past and we all try harder.

 

[XTR]

Barrel manufacturers should invest in sponsoring ETs.

I'm certain that it will speed up F-Class, then the next complaint will be that we shouldn't be shooting 20 shot strings because the barrels get to hot. Not the biggest fan here.

When did pulling targets get to be such a chore?

 

[6BRinNZ]

Barrel manufacturers should invest in sponsoring ETs.

I'm certain that it will speed up F-Class, then the next complaint will be that we shouldn't be shooting 20 shot strings because the barrels get to hot. Not the biggest fan here.

When did pulling targets get to be such a chore?

You are probably correct - but I think ET's offer a lot of flexibility and if thought through correctly will be good for the sport. Its a bit Like FO and FTR - sure there are some things about FTR that people don't like with the equipment and what people try to do within the rules but on the whole it works....but clearly has been reasonably well thought through (on the whole).

There are 4 pages of angst for pit service and while there are a number of things that make shooting inconsistent and not a level playing field - pit service or lack of would top the list.

 

[XTR]

If the e targets were built with a delay of 15 seconds between recorded shot and display for the shooter it would fix my main concern. I don't want to see F class turn into a sport where you need a dual port action to shoot fast enough to win.

One other thing that e targets takes away is your ability to see other peoples results. Call it what you like but when you see a shift but aren't sure what it's worth just wait for he guy who is chasing the spotter to shoot and see where he put it. Can't do that with an E target.

For all the angst over pit service I've never had bad pit service at a national or state level match. In fact I can only really think of two occasions when I had what I'd call bad pit service (when the scorer noticed and commented) and both were club level matches.

 

[6BRinNZ]

If the e targets were built with a delay of 15 seconds between recorded shot and display for the shooter it would fix my main concern. I don't want to see F class turn into a sport where you need a dual port action to shoot fast enough to win.

One other thing that e targets takes away is your ability to see other peoples results. Call it what you like but when you see a shift but aren't sure what it's worth just wait for he guy who is chasing the spotter to shoot and see where he put it. Can't do that with an E target.

For all the angst over pit service I've never had bad pit service at a national or state level match. In fact I can only really think of two occasions when I had what I'd call bad pit service (when the scorer noticed and commented) and both were club level matches.

I completely agree - I would probably leave the sport if it did literally become belly bench rest. The on your own aspect I am not so worried about but can see the for and against arguments...ET's do present philosophical questions that need to be answered.

I used to shoot a 6mm in FO - and at 1000 I would have to put a call in pretty (to the point the scorer went and complained to the RO) much every shot....club days I consider it a worthy challenge, regionals and up its just a PO.

 

[Coolhand]

My comment '' in good steady conditions " must have been overlooked. A Club mate medically retired from F Class was known as Machine Gun Kelly , sometimes in very good conditions where the wind was almost benign Alan would shoot so fast that the scorer could miss a shot if he or she was not paying attention , and that was on pulled targets. His main bug bear in these benign conditions was SLOW target service. I asked him once why he shot so fast , his reply was that as far as he knew the sport was called Fullbore shooting not Fullbore looking and why would you p*ss about when you have good wind.
As for F Class becoming belly bench rest ( which by some purists ) it already is, is not going to happen.
Purely because whether you are on E Targets or paper the conditions will still dictate.
Last Saturday at 600 yards only one of our A Grade shooters managed a possible in the 1st string , one of 6 A Grade shooters that are capable of cleaning the target, he read the conditions better than the others, conditions were challenging to say the least, wind strength was around 10-12 mph but switching left and right in a moments notice, the windage arms were getting a real work out.
E Targets are not going to change the fact that a shooter, first and foremost will still have to read the conditions AND fire a good shot. I don't know how many times in the past 20 odd years , I have asked the RO to instruct the target puller to put down his newspaper and mark the *&^&%%$$ TARGET ! Now I won't be distracted by slow pit service.

regards
Mike.

 

[gmitchell]

Are there any US companies manufacturing e targets yet?
Is there a possibility systems will go down in price when other disciplines start using e targets? I guess that would be my prediction.

Gordy

 

[ORANGEKENNY]

Hi Everyone,

My name is Kenny Proulx and i am the KONGSBERG TARGET SYSTEM Canadian Dealer. I can also sell in US and offer support. If someone has question regarding Electronic Target, i can help.

My web site is
http://www.electronictargetscanada.com/en/index.php

CMP, Civilian Marksmenship Program is building a Range in Talladega and it will be all KONGSBERG TARGET SYSTEM product. I am telling you, a lot of major range will be transfered in Electronic in the next few years and it will become the normality.

To answer some questions, we have software call WinGPS that offers broadcasting of live target plot. So easily, you could put up a screen and see others targets plot. You can also broadcast by wifi on web page to all internet to see and follow competition live, or give a tablet to Coaches in team competition so they can see other team target live.

here is a link of some of this stuff in NORWAY where they have their NRA are using KTS for their national championship:
http://tv.nrk.no/serie/landsskytterstevnet/MSPO30140114/06-08-2014

You have also a software to run championship, so you control averything from the computer, and print out result for the competitor...

A lot of potential!


you can also write me at

kennyproulx@videotron.ca

or through the web site

Kenny Proulx

 

[AlanPF]

....As for F Class becoming belly bench rest ( which by some purists ) it already is, is not going to happen.
Purely because whether you are on E Targets or paper the conditions will still dictate...

Mike,

If ETs become widely used in their current form (without any delay), there is no doubt that they will reduce the number of wind changes encountered, simply because of the reduction in duration of the shoot. In conditions where changes are slow, it will make the practice of “chasing the spotter” more attractive. Even in switching conditions, very fast shooters will gain advantage by shooting in bursts of several shots between changes. I believe that over time, it may become necessary to shoot very fast (in the vicinity of 3 seconds per shot) to be competitive at the top level, and typical equipment specs will change accordingly (multiple port actions and low recoil calibres will suit). F-Class currently has a unique character about it, and I'd suggest that the most important learnt skill is wind reading. Rifle and ammunition accuracy is very important, but these aspects are not always solely attributable to the shooter. ETs with no delay will reduce the importance of wind reading skills, and change the emphasis towards fast shooting skills. That may well be a direction that the majority of competitors want to go, but I suspect not. We have evolved from a "slow-fire" discipline using single shot actions, and the relaxed tempo is certainly something that attracts me to the sport.

Alan Fraser

 

[6BRinNZ]

As for F Class becoming belly bench rest ( which by some purists ) it already is, is not going to happen.

Typically this is countered by stating that a significant difference (outside of scoring) is that F-class has to wait for the target to be pulled....

This isn't a - are ET's good or bad thing, it's about understanding the impact to the sport that the technology brings...a little akin to the heavy bullet debate in FTR - I believe a previous US FTR captain raised various internet posts asking what people wanted with respect to a bullet weight restriction. The question arose because of significant changes in bullet designs were/are driving equipment changes and arguably moving the discipline away from its original intention. Unfortunately (or not) the heavies (bullets) horse had long since bolted and there is no going back now.

ET's potentially represent a similar step change and it would be useful for aspects of ET implementations to be considered upfront....again it's not a "should we use ET's or not equation".

 

[AlanPF]

This isn't a - are ET's good or bad thing, it's about understanding the impact to the sport that the technology brings...

Yes, sorry if I didn't make that clear. The potential of ETs to improve the appeal of the sport is unquestioned, and I support their introduction as soon as they are ready in terms of reliability and accuracy. But if they are allowed to dumb down the wind reading side of the sport, we need to be concerned. It needs only a simple and inexpensive software modification to introduce a delay in the shot position display - exactly what that delay should be is debatable - I think probably about what a good marker (puller) can do.

 

[timeout]

This isn't a - are ET's good or bad thing, it's about understanding the impact to the sport that the technology brings...

Yes, sorry if I didn't make that clear. The potential of ETs to improve the appeal of the sport is unquestioned, and I support their introduction as soon as they are ready in terms of reliability and accuracy. But if they are allowed to dumb down the wind reading side of the sport, we need to be concerned. It needs only a simple and inexpensive software modification to introduce a delay in the shot position display - exactly what that delay should be is debatable - I think probably about what a good marker (puller) can do.

FWIW, I have never shot F class, but the delay makes perfect sense to me. A set amount of time delay should put everyone on equal footing - as opposed to a competitor that by luck of the draw gets stuck with a rookie target puller. I have only pulled targets one time and it is somewhat of a daunting task for a newbie. I am quite certain my name was taken in vain a time or two. ;D

 

[ORANGEKENNY]

....As for F Class becoming belly bench rest ( which by some purists ) it already is, is not going to happen.
Purely because whether you are on E Targets or paper the conditions will still dictate...

Mike,

If ETs become widely used in their current form (without any delay), there is no doubt that they will reduce the number of wind changes encountered, simply because of the reduction in duration of the shoot. In conditions where changes are slow, it will make the practice of “chasing the spotter” more attractive. Even in switching conditions, very fast shooters will gain advantage by shooting in bursts of several shots between changes. I believe that over time, it may become necessary to shoot very fast (in the vicinity of 3 seconds per shot) to be competitive at the top level, and typical equipment specs will change accordingly (multiple port actions and low recoil calibres will suit). F-Class currently has a unique character about it, and I'd suggest that the most important learnt skill is wind reading. Rifle and ammunition accuracy is very important, but these aspects are not always solely attributable to the shooter. ETs with no delay will reduce the importance of wind reading skills, and change the emphasis towards fast shooting skills. That may well be a direction that the majority of competitors want to go, but I suspect not. We have evolved from a "slow-fire" discipline using single shot actions, and the relaxed tempo is certainly something that attracts me to the sport.

Alan Fraser

Alan, the request has already been made to KONGSBERG to add a controllable delay in the ORION competition software. This, when shooting String like in Australia and US, will slowdown the process so it is not becoming a machinegun race.

In Canada and most of other country, we use Bisley style squadding. We shoot in pairs, alternating shots between shooter. This make a natural rythm where you have a limit to control your condition. So you have to read wind and take the shot each time. Next two F-CLass World Championship will be shot like this!

Kenny

 

[AlanPF]

Alan, the request has already been made to KONGSBERG to add a controllable delay in the ORION competition software.

Thanks Kenny - that is good news. As you say, Bisley style shooting has its own way of limiting the rate of fire - I regret that it is rarely used in Australia.