Accuracy of electronic targets
- Thread starter Bryan Litz Ballistics
- Start date
Dos XX said:
Very good question. A ET system should, IMO, function as much like a pulled target as possible. When a shot registers, the screen goes blank for 7 seconds, then the screen appears with the target and the shot visible. Exactly like the target going into the pits. If designed this way, there should never be a "second" shot on the target. The software should be written that only the first shot is shown.
Larry - also very good points. I'd agree with your statement that shooter provided scoring equip (phones, iPads, etc) should not be allowed, it could be manipulated (hacked as it were). It could have tech "issues" that impact the match. I'd also very much agree calibration must be exact, we should not have to adjust to the system...
If two shooters fire on the target at the same time or almost the same time, the problem might be that we would not know for sure which shooter fired first, or more precisely, which bullet impacted first. It seems that it needs to register both impacts.Mark Walker in TX said:
[br]Mark Walker in TX said:
That scenario won't work, Mark, as DosXX noted. Let's say someone crossfires on your target and the impact is a half second before yours. The crossfire is a "7" and your shot is an "X". Your scorer knows you fired and the shots were close enough that it appears to be your shot. If it only registers the first shot, you have a "7". I'm not saying that you have never fired a "7", but it's somewhat rare.
Steve Blair said:[br]Mark Walker in TX said:
That scenario won't work, Mark, as DosXX noted. Let's say someone crossfires on your target and the impact is a half second before yours. The crossfire is a "7" and your shot is an "X". Your scorer knows you fired and the shots were close enough that it appears to be your shot. If it only registers the first shot, you have a "7". I'm not saying that you have never fired a "7", but it's somewhat rare.
Yep, agree, was thinking about it and was coming back to correct myself. It must show both so you get the benefit of the higher score. Show both, score the higher and move on. And I've fired plenty of 7s, heck I had one 6 at the FCNC.
Dos XX said:
Thunked of, heck, it's even more fun to test this. ETs are able to detect shots fired quite close together, for example I once demo'd my system to a military weapons testing lab and they fired some full auto bursts from a C7 at a distance of about 10-15 yards. Not only were all 42 shots picked up and properly recorded, but the system also picked up and recorded an additional 42 readings which were the muzzle blasts also arriving at the target in between bullets.
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Having said that, all ETs that I know of do have a small "window" of time (in the SMT system about 8 milliseconds) in which they can only process one shot; if a second shot arrives during this time period it will fail to be measured and will be "lost". This is not very frequent but it is a physical possibility and therefore the match officials and competitors need to know about it and the rules and procedures have to take it into account, so that shooters are treated fairly (this basically comes down to investigating what happened, given whatever diagnostic data the e-target and the scorekeeper are able to provide, and making a "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter" decision when warranted).
Dos XX said:
There is a somewhat different "feel" to multiple hits when using ETs, which has to be taken into account by ET software designers, and scorekeepers, and shooters.
On a manually marked target, the only shot(s) shown to you when the target rises out of the pits is the new shot(s) that have appeared on the target. So if I crossfire onto your target at more or less the same time that you fire your shot, what you will see when the target rises out of the pits is a highly unusual and very unmistakable situation - a target with two spotters on it. There is very little chance of the scorekeeper and the shooter not noticing this (so they can proceed with applying the appropriate rule - for example, shooter gets the higher score, or if it is a sighter shot under DCRA or ICFRA rules the shooter is entitled to another sighter)
Most ETs show you an accumulation of all the shots you have fired in your string so far.... so when you fire your 11th shot on score and I happen to crossfire onto your target at exactly the wrong time, what happens is that a shot #11 and a shot #12 appear at almost exactly the same time. Somehow, the E-Target software and the scorekeeper and the shooter have to work together well enough to notice the situation and apply the correct remedy, for example assign the higher valued shot to the shooter and strike out the lower valued shot. The SMT software displays a yellow circle around "new" shots (shots that have arrived on the target within the last 15 seconds), however I am sure there are probably other good ways to get this information across:
Mark Walker in TX said:
Earlier this year the Australian F-Class shooters tried out a programmed delay in e-targets. The best implementation of this that I have heard of is how the OzScore system handled it:
- as soon as a shot arrives at the target, a large box is displayed on the screen, which says something like "WAITING...." along with a live countdown timer
- if any additional shots arrive at the target while this "WAITING.." box is in place, they are noted
- when the timer expires, all shots that arrived during that time are shown (for example, you might be shown two new shots)
This handles the edge-case scenarios of someone cross-firing onto your target (before or after your shot) reasonably gracefully.
The Australians ultimately ended up deciding against introducing a deliberate delay to e-targets, however in my opinion they arrived at their decision in exactly the right way: First, they ran some trials, with varying amounts of delay (from zero up to a fairly long delay), and *then* they decided what they wanted to change or keep the same.
daniel.chisholm said:
That is a very good solution.
Agree on how to arrive at the ultimate decision, but unfortunately we're not in the position to have the luxury of trials, at least for the vast majority of the shooters. Most will never have seen an ET when they show up in Lodi in 2016. That is an entire other issue, initial deployment at a National Championship.
Also, as the ETs will not be in place at the majority of the ranges, from a rules/records perspective, I'd think we would want as much commonality between matches shot using ETs vs manual. Meaning, if at 90% of the ranges there is a delay in scoring as we are still manual, then the ETs, where used, should have the delay to simulate and keep if as fair as possible from a records perspective.
daniel.chisholm said:
He won't need any help...he is even more of a computer geek than I am.
But I am glad to know he has gotten one so maybe I can now see it in action and maybe even have the opportunity for a little hands on.
One of our clubs top shooters quit the sport last year over bad pit service at the big match... The old way will be alive for a long time , but I see this as an improvement for the people that give all they have to participate in the higher level competition. Lodi has chosen this to accommodate us, I will be one of those with no experience at this.
Looks to me like you can still chase the spotter. It will just be the spotter on the screen. You won't be able to measure the spotter distance from center with your reticle and use that as a hold over. I really don't do that anyway. It appears I can still see where my shot landed and hold off to the other side to correct my 6.
Another possible benefit I see is that you can see your group forming as if you were plotting shots, something I don't do. This means you can notice if your elevation needs to come up or down as your group forms. I have gone to the pits before and looked at my pasters and realized that I should have been up a click or 5.
Another possible benefit I see is that you can see your group forming as if you were plotting shots, something I don't do. This means you can notice if your elevation needs to come up or down as your group forms. I have gone to the pits before and looked at my pasters and realized that I should have been up a click or 5.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
I second Larry and Mark. In order to reflect the way we shoot F-Class in 99% on the matches around our country, there has to be a built in delay. I also wonder how its going to be trying to "hold off" on these targets with no true center. I know the sport has to make forward progress, but I for one am not sure a rushed, untested system is the correct answer.....
I am not concerned about me cross firing that is a straight miss. I am concerned with a cross fired shot on the other target and the shooter on that target not been given the value of his shot. With out a time delay and the scorer doing their job correctly the correct score will be scored. With a time delay or the scorer not doing their job correctly the highest value will be scored as the current rule. The current rule covered the current slow system. ETs are faster and show the order of the hits allowing the correct score to be allocated. The pressure is on the scorer to do the job correctlyXTR said:
I am under the impression that the idea of this game was for the shooter to win on his own score without gaining points from else where. ETs have the ability to remove another glitch in achieving the correct score and order at the presentations.
The only difference that you wont see is a spotter in your scope it is on the screen. Hold offs are just the same. Zeros are still the same and used the same. Sighters are still used the same way which give you the daily corrections for the conditions. The aiming mark has not changed the monitor shows the hits in relation to the centre so you can correct the same way. You shoot the same you just get the information faster. Mirage is the same as are all other conditions you just get the information faster. How you deal with it is just the same just that you can go faster if you wish. The SCORER is the one who has a major change in the job description.
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