223 24" best bullet to blow up P Dogs?

[ben lurkin]

After looking at 223 bullets it seems the 53gr Vmax is the best bullet for PD.
- Explosive
- High BC 2.90 vs just 2.00 for the 40gr
- Wind drift and drop 16" or so at 400 yards

But I don't get why people are using 1/12 twists with them. I checked them out they have the length of a 60gr bullet longer than 55gr
53gr Vmax - .829"
55gr Vmax . .813"
55gr FMJ .735"

You can't go by weight alone its the shape and the 53s are longer. They look to be best stabilized in 1/9 to 1/10 twist.

Wonder how fast they can be pushed in a 24" barrel 223 bolt? 3600 fps?

Depends what ‘best’ means to you. Your title says ‘blow up’. You haven’t seen explosive until you’ve hit a pdog with a 36 gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. I also like the 40 gr Noslers. Those little suckers are very flat shooting at 3800 fps out to 400 yards and really unzip varmints; more so than the heavier bullets are within that distance. Beyond that I usually switch to a 22-250, Swift, or 6mm since they buck the wind better.

Another ‘best’ for me is accuracy. If the load doesn’t shoot well, it’s worthless IMHO.

I’ve only tried the 53 gr Nosler Varmageddons, though it’s similar to the Vmax. 3300 fps is a lot more realistic than 3600 in a 24” barrel. My 223s have 1:9 or 1:10 twist barrels (except for my Cooper which is still 1:12). They handle the lightweights up to the heavier 69 gr SMK just fine.

 

[JSH]

To the OP. Don’t get caught up in quantity, go for quality.
Mixed brass may work well for some, for me mixed brass = mixed results.
There is no one perfect splat factor bullet, some seem to work better than others. It’s an accuracy game first.

I would not bring huge amounts of ammo for each gun. That will in turn make you think about a shot rather than, “I have more” attitude. 200 rounds per gun per day is more than plenty. I would be more inclined to say 200 per caliber per day.
Finding a do all load and bullet combo for say 2-4 223 rifles can be a chore if at all possible to make me happy.

 

[Dgd6mm]

After looking at 223 bullets it seems the 53gr Vmax is the best bullet for PD.
- Explosive
- High BC 2.90 vs just 2.00 for the 40gr
- Wind drift and drop 16" or so at 400 yards

But I don't get why people are using 1/12 twists with them. I checked them out they have the length of a 60gr bullet longer than 55gr
53gr Vmax - .829"
55gr Vmax . .813"
55gr FMJ .735"

You can't go by weight alone its the shape and the 53s are longer. They look to be best stabilized in 1/9 to 1/10 twist.

Wonder how fast they can be pushed in a 24" barrel 223 bolt? 3600 fps?

I've shot the 53vmax in my 8,9,12 twist barrels. Excellent accuracy in all 3.
Soon to be shooting them in a 7 twist. The 7 twist will not be primarily for the 53vmax but they will be shot in it.

 

[AndrewB]

FWIW, here is my PD hunt checklist since it will be your first time. And since I am goofing off at work.

I am a big fan of the Savage varmint rifles if you are going bolt action - I have found them to be accurate

12 LRPV | Long-Range Varmint Hunting Rifle | Savage Arms

The 12 LRPV offers exceptional long-range accuracy for varmint hunting, featuring a full-profile stainless steel barrel, AccuTrigger and HS Precision stock.

www.savagearms.com

hunting license
Mifi
Laptop
Laptop Charger
Phone charger
Contact lens
ammo
cleaning equipment – rod, jags, brush, solvent, patches
hearing protection
rifles
Ballistic charts
Wind flags
shooting bench
fuzzy bath mat or towel for bench top
rear bag
front rest
Folding chair to sit in when not shooting
range finder
batteries for range finder
binoculars
couple of small towels
bug spray
some tools – pliers, screwdrivers, just in case
sunglasses
sunscreen
wipes for cleaning off your hands
Camera
small cooler for drinks and lunch
water
Pistol with birdshot for snakes
lip balm
Any meds you take
Cpap
eye drops (always very windy)
Avoid wearing white, PD see it and go down
boots, not tennis shoes (better snake protection)
hats
light jacket
light long sleeve shirts

 

[BobbyJ]

Depends what ‘best’ means to you. Your title says ‘blow up’. You haven’t seen explosive until you’ve hit a pdog with a 36 gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. I also like the 40 gr Noslers. Those little suckers are very flat shooting at 3800 fps out to 400 yards and really unzip varmints; more so than the heavier bullets are within that distance. Beyond that I usually switch to a 22-250, Swift, or 6mm since they buck the wind better.

Another ‘best’ for me is accuracy. If the load doesn’t shoot well, it’s worthless IMHO.

I’ve only tried the 53 gr Nosler Varmageddons, though it’s similar to the Vmax. 3300 fps is a lot more realistic than 3600 in a 24” barrel. My 223s have 1:9 or 1:10 twist barrels (except for my Cooper which is still 1:12). They handle the lightweights up to the heavier 69 gr SMK just fine.

I was just looking at the BCs of the bullets .290 is pretty high for a 53gr. The Varmint grenades or only a .14 BC so past 200 yards its energy is like 1/2 the 53gr.

But sure Id try the grenades.

Not sure what barrel or twist to get.
AR - 20 or 24" Some say 24" too heavy 20 better.
1/9 vs 1/12 - Many are 1/8.
Or if a non AR which gun. I saw an old cooper for say from like 1991 stainless but without knowing its history might be a poor choice if barrel is shot out.
CZ looks like they stopped making 223 Varmints
Remington 700, Savage 110? not sure

3300 fps seems slow. stock Nato 5.56 shoots 3200 fps out of a 20" AR. I would think at least 3400 to 3500 from a 24". I think hornady sells the 53gr stock at 3450 fps. That is loaded to 223 pressure. A AR can handle 7,000 more PSI than 223.

 

[BobbyJ]

To the OP. Don’t get caught up in quantity, go for quality.
Mixed brass may work well for some, for me mixed brass = mixed results.
There is no one perfect splat factor bullet, some seem to work better than others. It’s an accuracy game first.

I would not bring huge amounts of ammo for each gun. That will in turn make you think about a shot rather than, “I have more” attitude. 200 rounds per gun per day is more than plenty. I would be more inclined to say 200 per caliber per day.
Finding a do all load and bullet combo for say 2-4 223 rifles can be a chore if at all possible to make me happy.

I agree in the perfect world I would use all NEW brass but I have 3,000 once fired 223/5.56 brass. it shoots just over 1 MOA out of my 16" colts. Maybe not pefect but good enough out to 300 yards. I do expect some misses makes it more challenging.

 

[Dgd6mm]

The size of the target the wind and the longer distance if you're shooting over 300 yards a .223 and 53vmax will make it challenging enough. Just saying. Lots of fun to be had. 15mph a second later 25mph than a slight let off.
Swing, strike, and a miss. Yes challenging.

 

[lp6]

I just got back from Wyoming PD shooting. Put together 2 AR’s with 24” Shilen Match Heavy Varmint barrels. 1-12 twist. They shot most of the bullets mentioned here in the 50-55 grain range amazingly well. A lot of great suggestions here any way you go.

 

[David Milisock]

Don't be so sure. Those 40 grain Vmax's are my go to bullet for p-dogs. My 223 AI, DPMS Bull 20 and Bushmaster 16" will launch that bullet quickly and accurately. I don't shoot the AR's much in the dog towns. I find myself wasting ammo on follow up shots.

This is a the usual outcome with the 40 Vmax at 250+ yards with a steady crosswind. Notice how much the bullet drifts?....That's the disadvantage of the lighter bullets.......I've learned to adjust for that no problem....out to about 300 yards. After that the 6mm's come into play.

I use the 40 VMAX Moly myself and I have for a very long time. I find that as the wind varies, they actually fair better than the heavier projectiles in my Howa 1500. The 52 through the 55 tend to have longer times in flight and have a greater arc in their trajectory.

I'd bet that to use them in an AR you'd have to get your barrel cut to fit and reduce the twist. I run 1 in 12 really hot in my bolt rifle.

 

[DogBuster]

Before the 53 V came along........I used the 55 Nozler BT.....223 AI currently 9T

Both are good but prefer the V max......glad I have a stash of each before the all shortage's came

 

[JSH]

3300 fps seems slow. stock Nato 5.56 shoots 3200 fps out of a 20" AR. I would think at least 3400 to 3500 from a 24". I think hornady sells the 53gr stock at 3450 fps. That is loaded to 223 pressure. A AR can handle 7,000 more PSI than 223.

Right or wrong, I think you will find a fair number of guys running 5.56 data in their 223.
Once again speed is great and liked by many, accuracy trumps it every time though.

If you were closer I would loan you a 223 that weighs about 25lbs+. Bore scope shows it is shot out, targets show other wise and shoots sub MOA out to 300 on paper. It has some fire cracking and was abused before I got it. Fouls around 300 rounds, but cleans easy. Crazy thing it shoots 40-69 grain bullets with acceptable minute of prairie dog accuracy. It shines with the old tried and true 50 grain SX.

Good luck to ya on your project.

 

[Ackman]

I think next year I'm going to try a PD shoot. I have a pencil barrel .204 ruger but got to thinking ammo is going to cost and I don't have brass for .204. I do have 3000 223 brass for my AR and Dillon xl650. I'm thinking of just getting a 24' Bull Barrel for my Colt 6920. I'm thinking I can probably get a .223 close to .204 or 22-250 performance.

So I'm shopping uppers.
-Rock River Arms 24 inch - Varmint A4 - 1/12 Twist - They claim sub MOA and good for 40-55gr

https://www.pkfirearms.com/rock-river-arms-24-inch-varmint-a4-112-twist-complete-upper

-Bullets? Overall the 53gr Vmax at 3450fps looks to buck the wind better than the 40s.

I compared
53 gr Vmax 2.90 BC at 3450 fps to
40 gr Vmax 2.00 BC at 3800 fps

Even though the 53 gr is slower it has 15.6" of wind drift vs 22.2" of the 40gr
and 572 FPE vs 341 FPE at 400 yards.

I read the 40gr is more explosive but that might only be at 100 yards. At some point they all have to loose that explosive POP on dogs. I don't know what ranges that occurs on with the 40s vs the 53s.

Another thing is heat, 3800fps with 40gr is going to heat up the barrels more than 3450 fps with the 53gr.

Never been on a Pdog shoot just starting to researching what will work best. I'm thinking 1/12 twist will get the most velocity out of the 53gr as long as they stablize well. Maybe I can push the 53s to 3500 fps in that 24" barrel.

I'm all ears on suggestions on bullets, powders, and the AR barrel.

What range will this be good for? I'm thinking maybe out to 400 yards. Would like to hear from people that have actually shot P dogs with a .223.

I would go with .204 or 22-250 but I have no brass or dies for it. Seems cheaper to stick with .223 and make the best of it.

All varmint bullets are explosive, some more than others but they all do the job. You can go nuts comparing BC's one against another. The best one to use is the one that's most accurate in your rifle. And the way things are now, it would be what's most accurate, AND available

 

[BobbyJ]

I just ordered a improved National Match AR-15 Bull Accuracy Barrel by EABCO - 24" Stainless Fluted 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem (Wylde) 1:9 Varmint Barrel. Price was right and they had them in stock which more others did not. wanted 1/12 but 1/9 is what they had.

It shoud shoot 50-62gr pretty well. I will have to test 50, 53, 55 and 62 out of them. I'll get a box of Hornady 53gr as a baseline they are suppose to get 3450fps from a 24" barrel.

I agree a bullet on paper that shoots 3" groups is no good. I'm looking for 3300 - 3500 fps velocities + good accuracy.

 

[BobbyJ]

Where are you going and what are the expected wind conditions?

Not sure, would like a professional outfitter, one with lots of Pdogs. Would like to hear from people that actually went to one. I don't think I want to go it alone trying to find public land the first time out. Sort of want a guarantee that I will have something to shoot at. So paying a little more would be worth it.

 

[BobbyJ]

I've had some time to test .223 bullets from the Varming gun I just built. (made 2 of them)
So far the best is
53gr Vmax 28gr cfe
53 Vmax 26.1 Xterminator
69 HMR and SMK 25.5 CFE
Those three I can shoot 1/2" sometimes better

40Vmax not as tight like .65"

36gr Varmint Grenade - Terrible 1 to 1.9" groups with 28.5gr Xtermintor.

 

[dusterdave173]

I am a Rookie and have only been PD shooting for two days in my entire life but...shooting 40g Vmax and 50g Vmax it seemed to me like anything inside 250 was a classic blown up PD and out to maybe 300 but after that the effect wore off fast so that the PD's I killed at 500 had neat hole in one side and baseball size exit --they just fell over when shot--Just not much drama after 300 yards--the ones at 400-500 just acted like actors in a B grade western movie--a few spins and down
From my small amount of observation the 'blow up" drama was much better at close in ranges
Our 50g were at 3200 the 40's were running about 3400

 

[BobbyJ]

I am a Rookie and have only been PD shooting for two days in my entire life but...shooting 40g Vmax and 50g Vmax it seemed to me like anything inside 250 was a classic blown up PD and out to maybe 300 but after that the effect wore off fast so that the PD's I killed at 500 had neat hole in one side and baseball size exit --they just fell over when shot--Just not much drama after 300 yards--the ones at 400-500 just acted like actors in a B grade western movie--a few spins and down
From my small amount of observation the 'blow up" drama was much better at close in ranges
Our 50g were at 3200 the 40's were running about 3400

I think I'll run the 53gr at 3330 fps. The 40s were not quite as accurate in my 1/9". Yea I was wondering when the effect wears off. Thanks for the observations.

Did you have any experience shooting that far before? My range is only 200yards max. 400-500 yards with a 223 is pretty good. With the wind and maybe a +- 1" of uncertainty from ammo + scope movement. Was it more of a Miss see where it hits the dirt then get it on 2nd or 3rd shot at that distance?

 

[urbanrifleman]

I am a Rookie and have only been PD shooting for two days in my entire life but...shooting 40g Vmax and 50g Vmax it seemed to me like anything inside 250 was a classic blown up PD and out to maybe 300 but after that the effect wore off fast so that the PD's I killed at 500 had neat hole in one side and baseball size exit --they just fell over when shot--Just not much drama after 300 yards--the ones at 400-500 just acted like actors in a B grade western movie--a few spins and down
From my small amount of observation the 'blow up" drama was much better at close in ranges
Our 50g were at 3200 the 40's were running about 3400

Try them at 3850. They keep blowing up further out.

But you are right, the bc are so low on those bullets they slow down crazy fast.

 

[JSH]

I've had some time to test .223 bullets from the Varming gun I just built. (made 2 of them)
So far the best is
53gr Vmax 28gr cfe
53 Vmax 26.1 Xterminator
69 HMR and SMK 25.5 CFE
Those three I can shoot 1/2" sometimes better

40Vmax not as tight like .65"

36gr Varmint Grenade - Terrible 1 to 1.9" groups with 28.5gr Xtermintor.

View attachment 1378910

Responded to your other thread on recoil and just saw your rig, looks good;-).

Have you tried a Harris or Atlas type bipod, compared to your above the bore?

 

[CT10ring]

I think next year I'm going to try a PD shoot. I have a pencil barrel .204 ruger but got to thinking ammo is going to cost and I don't have brass for .204. I do have 3000 223 brass for my AR and Dillon xl650. I'm thinking of just getting a 24' Bull Barrel for my Colt 6920. I'm thinking I can probably get a .223 close to .204 or 22-250 performance.

So I'm shopping uppers.
-Rock River Arms 24 inch - Varmint A4 - 1/12 Twist - They claim sub MOA and good for 40-55gr

https://www.pkfirearms.com/rock-river-arms-24-inch-varmint-a4-112-twist-complete-upper

-Bullets? Overall the 53gr Vmax at 3450fps looks to buck the wind better than the 40s.

I compared
53 gr Vmax 2.90 BC at 3450 fps to
40 gr Vmax 2.00 BC at 3800 fps

Even though the 53 gr is slower it has 15.6" of wind drift vs 22.2" of the 40gr
and 572 FPE vs 341 FPE at 400 yards.

I read the 40gr is more explosive but that might only be at 100 yards. At some point they all have to loose that explosive POP on dogs. I don't know what ranges that occurs on with the 40s vs the 53s.

Another thing is heat, 3800fps with 40gr is going to heat up the barrels more than 3450 fps with the 53gr.

Never been on a Pdog shoot just starting to researching what will work best. I'm thinking 1/12 twist will get the most velocity out of the 53gr as long as they stablize well. Maybe I can push the 53s to 3500 fps in that 24" barrel.

I'm all ears on suggestions on bullets, powders, and the AR barrel.

What range will this be good for? I'm thinking maybe out to 400 yards. Would like to hear from people that have actually shot P dogs with a .223.

I would go with .204 or 22-250 but I have no brass or dies for it. Seems cheaper to stick with .223 and make the best of it.

Hard to go wrong with a .223 for PD's.
Although - a .204 or 22-250 will shoot MUCH flatter.
53g Vmax is a fantastic bullet. A heavy bbl is always a plus on a bolt or AR for high volume shooting.
I shoot a .223 bolt 1/9 twist bolt. Also AR's with heavy bbl. w the V Max 53g.
As far as range - it depends entirely on the wind and how often you want to hit.
fwiw, the Sierra 55g Blitzking is an accurate hard hitting varmint bullet.