Will the 6PPC Ever Be Surpassed in the Short Range Benchrest Game ?

[AlNyhus]

Have you looked at the availability of Lapua 6BR brass recently? Not encouraging...

Boyd, you won't find it at any retailers or online. But it's out there.

I've helped several people during this market cycle (that were new to the 30BR) by supplying them with Lapua 6BR brass.

The Peterson and Norma BR cases are very good. I've been beating the crap out of Norma cases in one of my 6BR's for a while and it shows no signs of giving up.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[Shooter13]

6MM ARC................????

Never seen one on the line at a short range BR match.

 

[jackieschmidt]

There actually was another case that was a serious contender, what is now known as the 6mm BR. I was talking with a friend that has been shooting BR for a long time the other day. He was around when P&P were developing the 6 PPC. One of the people who was also involved in some way with this effort (I will get the name.) tried to pusuade Remington to make a short 308 case, but they would not. The best they would do was a thin walled 308 case to make case forming more feasible. His assertion was that if Remington had made a BR case, it would be the de facto standard instead of the PPC.

That the people who shoot 6 PPC continue to cram more and more powder into the PPC case, makes me wonder if a slightly larger case would not be better.

We are not necessarily trying to cram more powder into the 6PPC case that uses as the parent the Lapua 220 Russian. what We are trying to do is find the ultimate tune in the upper load window. I consider the upper load window to start at around 29.8 grns of a typical N133. You will be getting close to 3400 fps at that Powder weight.

On paper, 133 is actually too slow for the 66/68 grn bullet in a 6PPC. So why does it shoot so well?
I really do not know. I have several powders that are a little faster that would seem ideal, considering you don’t have to use a 14 inch long drop tube to get the 30+ grns of powder in. But through all of my years of shooting, they will not Agg with 133.

 

[D Coots]

A ppc shooter told me his low load is 30.6gr of N133. He took home some big wood from the Nationals. Custom action ect.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Never seen one on the line at a short range BR match.

I have been watching several videos on the ARC.
In one, they actually compared the Hornady case volume to a 6PPC. Even though the shoulder is moved out, making the body appearing to be quite a bit longer, the actual internal volume was only .6 og a grn more.
I suppose Hornady, knowing this case was designed primarily to be used in semi autos, made the web thicker.

 

[D Coots]

There are other calibers that are capable of shooting just as accurate. Some are even easier to tune and keep in tune, but the 6 ppc will remain the first choice for benchrest shooters. Several reasons. Quality brass, proper capacity to bore ratio, low recoil, great powder selection, and we tend to follow the leaders in the sport. I'm sure there are other reasons, but I have given more than enough reasons.

Michael

I'd say the #1 reason is that they want to win.

I'm sure the hunt never ends for a better option than the 6ppc as competition breeds people that want to win and are always looking for an advantage. That's why the 222 was dethroned.

I keep hearing folks say SR BR is stagnent. I'm thinkin these people don't compete as the records continue to be broken and the aggs just keep getting smaller. I witnessed it and signed targets as a referee a few weeks ago of a possible record shot with a rail gun. 11xx something. 5-5 shot groups. A sub .10xx will happen in the near future. Good shooters are always looking for some advantage which causes innovation.

Later
Dave

 

[Mulligan]

A ppc shooter told me his low load is 30.6gr of N133. He took home some big wood from the Nationals. Custom action ect.

How much 133 can actually fit in the PPC?
CW

 

[D Coots]

Depends on lot #, reamer, and where the bullet is in the case. I've heard him say 31.2gr is his max.

 

[Shooter13]

How much 133 can actually fit in the PPC?
CW

With a LONG drop tube you might be surprised!

 

[D Coots]

When shooters say…..”yeh, well what about the……….” Fine. Build one and head to the nearest Registered Match. Nothing gets other people’s attention quicker than winning.

Words of wisdom Jackie.

Later
Dave

 

[D Coots]

Serious competition shooters are in the game to win matches. Sometimes I think that fellows forget that. Trying a new caliber can be a grand and a half proposition, and if the cartridge you are shooting does not seem to have a problem there is little incentive to do that.

Can't agree with that. The winners are always looking for an advantage.

 

[BoydAllen]

All of the pictures in the article were of the same exact granules of powder with different fill techniques. The weight was 30.6. The one with the powder heaped up had some spilled on a piece of printer paper that the case sat inn the middle of, so that the powder could be recovered and returned to the test charge.

How Case Filling Method Can Alter Powder Column Height « Daily Bulletin

Most of us assume that if we weigh our powder carefully (down to the tenth of a grain or less) we can achieve a uniform powder fill from case to case in our handloads.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[D Coots]

With a 2" drop tube on my funnel I have no problem with 30.2 gr of N133.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I am heading to Lubbock Labor Day to shoot the Cotton Bowl, LV/HV.

I will be shooting 30.6 in all likely hood. My reamer has a .055 throat. My FB 68 just touches the powder at optimum seating depth.

I will also get to shoot with the newly crowned NBRSA 4-Gun Champion, Mike Conry.
I can’t imagine it getting much better than that

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

fwiw, I used a long drop tube and dumped 30.6 of n133 into a couple of fired 6 Grendel cases to see where it comes to with the long tube. Hard to do with one hand still in a brace. Lol! Anyway, just dumped into the 14" tube, the powder is just below the neck shoulder junction. I actually prefer the fill to be a little higher, where the powder is just lightly compressed which is how it is with no drop tube, just fast dumped from measure to case. Makes loading a bunch of ammo a lot easier and it shoots there. Splitting a very fine hair but I believe very dense and compressed charges actually slow the burn rate slightly and may affect how the primer flame permeates the powder column. Different strokes but I believe a light compression is very close to an ideal fill rate. As I said before, this fill rate is one reason I like the Grendel case. Not saying it's better but that it's what I like best. Again, splitting hairs. Since I typically go to matches pre-loaded and tune with the tuner, I'm typically going with about 200 rounds per gun for a match. If I were loading 20 at a time, I wouldn't worry much about it but loading that many, about 600 for the upcoming UBR Nats, I hate handling cases that are very full or fooling with long drop tubes when I don't have to.

From what I can tell, whether fireformed from 220r brass(to 6 Grendel) or using Lapua Grendel brass, capacity and brass life are identical for all intents and purposes. I can't and won't say that about other makes of brass.

Bottom line, if a 6 Grendel and a 6 PPC are so close that we shoot the same loads and bicker about how we have to get them to fit in the case, it's pretty fair also to say, both are very good. I do like the slightly longer neck of the PPC but to say that only one can be competitive is frankly either arrogance, ignorance or just bias. We should, imo, consider it as yet another option and be happy. If Lapua or someone else ever makes 6 ARC brass that is comparable to these two choices, I'd say the ARC can be just as good as either. For now though, that's not yet the case and either is only as good as the brass. What if Lapua were to cease to exist? I shudder to even think about it.

 

[Bill Norris]

I am heading to Lubbock Labor Day to shoot the Cotton Bowl, LV/HV.

I will be shooting 30.6 in all likely hood. My reamer has a .055 throat. My FB 68 just touches the powder at optimum seating depth.

I will also get to shoot with the newly crowned NBRSA 4-Gun Champion, Mike Conry.
I can’t imagine it getting much better than that

How much neck tension are you using on this load Jackie, if you don't mind me asking ?

 

[Ccrider]

I am heading to Lubbock Labor Day to shoot the Cotton Bowl, LV/HV.

I will be shooting 30.6 in all likely hood. My reamer has a .055 throat. My FB 68 just touches the powder at optimum seating depth.

I will also get to shoot with the newly crowned NBRSA 4-Gun Champion, Mike Conry.
I can’t imagine it getting much better than that

What speed are you getting. Are your shooting 68gr. bullets?

 

[Tim Singleton]

fwiw, I used a long drop tube and dumped 30.6 of n133 into a couple of fired 6 Grendel cases to see where it comes to with the long tube. Hard to do with one hand still in a brace. Lol! Anyway, just dumped into the 14" tube, the powder is just below the neck shoulder junction. I actually prefer the fill to be a little higher, where the powder is just lightly compressed which is how it is with no drop tube, just fast dumped from measure to case. Makes loading a bunch of ammo a lot easier and it shoots there. Splitting a very fine hair but I believe very dense and compressed charges actually slow the burn rate slightly and may affect how the primer flame permeates the powder column. Different strokes but I believe a light compression is very close to an ideal fill rate. As I said before, this fill rate is one reason I like the Grendel case. Not saying it's better but that it's what I like best. Again, splitting hairs. Since I typically go to matches pre-loaded and tune with the tuner, I'm typically going with about 200 rounds per gun for a match. If I were loading 20 at a time, I wouldn't worry much about it but loading that many, about 600 for the upcoming UBR Nats, I hate handling cases that are very full or fooling with long drop tubes when I don't have to.

From what I can tell, whether fireformed from 220r brass(to 6 Grendel) or using Lapua Grendel brass, capacity and brass life are identical for all intents and purposes. I can't and won't say that about other makes of brass.

Bottom line, if a 6 Grendel and a 6 PPC are so close that we shoot the same loads and bicker about how we have to get them to fit in the case, it's pretty fair also to say, both are very good. I do like the slightly longer neck of the PPC but to say that only one can be competitive is frankly either arrogance, ignorance or just bias. We should, imo, consider it as yet another option and be happy. If Lapua or someone else ever makes 6 ARC brass that is comparable to these two choices, I'd say the ARC can be just as good as either. For now though, that's not yet the case and either is only as good as the brass. What if Lapua were to cease to exist? I shudder to even think about it.

I'm probably in over my head here in saying this, But
I'm not sure a larger case to get 31 grains in easier has the same effect

The pressure will go down with the larger capacity.
There appears to be something in the high pressure curve that seems to be what is helping with these smaller and smaller aggs.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm probably in over my head here in saying this, But
I'm not sure a larger case to get 31 grains in easier has the same effect

The pressure will go down with the larger capacity.
There appears to be something in the high pressure curve that seems to be what is helping with these smaller and smaller aggs.

I agree but we're not talking much here. There's a lot more energy in a grain of powder than you lose in a gr of additional capacity. So the apparent difference is far less in use than say, adding a grain of powder to a ppc case capacity., which alone, would be pretty substantial. Hope that makes sense to you. Either way, we're still within stout ppc data ranges with the ability to go a little further to equal pressures. There are lots of people winning with ppc's with lower pressures than what we're talking here. IOW, maybe 30.6 in a Grendel is equal to about 30.2 in a ppc, just for example only.(pretty accurate though) A chrono will tell ya when pressures are basically equivalent. You're still able to reach the same pressures in Lapua brass, so.. But at the same pressures, the fill rate will be a little less in the larger case,. Again, splitting a pretty fine hair.

Another way of looking at it is 1.5gr of capacity is equal to about .4gr of powder, roughly

One more way to look at it, again with rough rough numbers...
30.2 gr of n133 w/68gr bullet in a 6 ppc =65,000psi
30.6gr of n133 w/68 bullet in a 6 Grendel = 65,000psi but with MORE room to spare

 

[D Coots]

Are the SR BR shooters using the wrong cartridge? Confused here???