Will the 6PPC Ever Be Surpassed in the Short Range Benchrest Game ?

[JimPag]

Take a deep breath. lol.

If I do I'll probably vapor lock if I'm lucky. LOL

 

[TRSR8]

Never gonna happen. Biggest changes with PPC have been different necks, tuners, more powders being used. Lt32, LT30, Lt31, which require little if any mid day tuning compared to 133, making life far simpler.

 

[AlNyhus]

I've had two 30BR 10.5 lb guns that I used for brief attempts at Light Varmint class Group shooting. I loved the stable tune up but the ability to run and gun when the conditions were stable just weren't doable for me with the gun movement. Looking back at it, I'd try a different approach were I to give registered Group shooting another shot.

The philosophy of Score shooting with a 13.5 lb gun vs Group shooting with a 10.5 lb gun is so different that I'm not sure I could make the transistion. Now...a 13.5 lb HV Group gun would be another kettle of fish.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jackieschmidt]

The two chamberings that I consider capable of the same precision are:

1…..The 22 PPC short. There are several shooters in the past that have been very successful with it it, either with the shoulder pushed back .080 or .100. Typically, they shoot 52 grn bullets at 3500+ fps.
The drawbacks are the making of the case, not that big of a deal for an experienced hand, but more involved than the 6PPC.
Back when NBRSA Sporter had to be 23 caliber or above, many shied away from the 22 because you could not shoot every class with it. It simply was not worth the hassle of having 2 different calibers when one would get the job done.
I think the Mike Radigan quote was, “shooting my 22 PPC short is almost like cheating”.

2. …..The 30 BR. Anybody who owns one of these can attest to the 30BR’s ability to stack one bullet atop the other. I tell people that if I am at the range with My 6PPC and my 30BR, and somebody ask me to shoot the smallest group I can, I would probably pick up the 30.
The drawback to the 30BR is the recoil. It might not seem like much for those in Disciplines that shoot large chamberings on a regular basis, but in a 10.5 pound rifle shooting an entire Grand Agg, the recoil is a problem. In Heavy Varmint, where you have 13.5 pounds to play with, it’s not near as bad, but still considerably more than a 6PPC. It rules in VFS because of best edge scoring, and the fact that you have to move the rifle from one aim point to another the ability to recover quickly is not near as important as it is in Group Shooting.

The 6PPC has evolved into “the small block Chevy” of Group Shooting. There is an entire industry built around the case, especially when using The Lapua 220 Russian as the parent. Bullets, barrels, entire rifles have been designed and dedicated to the 6PPC.

But even the venerable small Block Chevy is being displaced by the LS engine as the easy way to build performance. So I won’t say that nothing in the future will displace the 6PPC, it’s just at this time, it simply is hard to justify the time and effort that it envolved.

Now, of course, there are chamberings that are as capable. 6 Beggs, 22 Beggs, 6BR short, 222 Remington, and a host of other light recoil chamberings that are inherently accurate. When shooters say…..”yeh, well what about the……….” Fine. Build one and head to the nearest Registered Match. Nothing gets other people’s attention quicker than winning.

 

[Tommie]

The same question was asked of the 32-40, 219 Donaldson Wasp, 222 Remington and a few others. Short range benchrest used to be a hotbed of cartridge innovation.
Can the 6PPC be dethroned? Almost certainly.
Will it be dethroned? Not likely.
The cartridge development mentality has been, for the most part, been replaced by a race to see the winner’s equipment list. But who knows? Maybe the ultimate cartridge case was designed by the Soviet Union.

 

[BoydAllen]

The same question was asked of the 32-40, 219 Donaldson Wasp, 222 Remington and a few others. Short range benchrest used to be a hotbed of cartridge innovation.
Can the 6PPC be dethroned? Almost certainly.
Will it be dethroned? Not likely.
The cartridge development mentality has been, for the most part, been replaced by a race to see the winner’s equipment list. But who knows? Maybe the ultimate cartridge case was designed by the Soviet Union.

Serious competition shooters are in the game to win matches. Sometimes I think that fellows forget that. Trying a new caliber can be a grand and a half proposition, and if the cartridge you are shooting does not seem to have a problem there is little incentive to do that.

 

[Ccrider]

Interesting responses from some proven shooters that have tested the waters. I wonder what @mturner thoughts are about this.

 

[Tommie]

Serious competition shooters are in the game to win matches. Sometimes I think that fellows forget that. Trying a new caliber can be a grand and a half proposition, and if the cartridge you are shooting does not seem to have a problem there is little incentive to do that.

True. What’s different now versus say 1968?

 

[BoydAllen]

True. What’s different now versus say 1968?

You have to be kidding. Under the rules that were in place then, Sporter class rifles had to be a larger caliber than .22. As a result, shooters were generally shooting a .222 mag based 6x 47 or .308 in that class, neither of which were as reliably accurate as the various .22 calibers in use in light and heavy varmint. With the advent of the 6PPC shooters could shoot one rifle in all three classes, because it was as good as the best .22 calibers, perhaps better in the wind at 200. Today shooters do not have the same caliber restriction but there is still the very real question as to whether any other caliber can agg. better than the 6PPC. No one is preventing anyone from trying any caliber that fits within the rules, but it seems that most who decry the lack of experimentation are not willing to spend their own money to do so. If we were talking about evolution of fauna or flora, we would say that the PPC is where it is because of natural selection.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think there are a few cartridges that might be as good as a ppc but again, ya gotta be able to shoot the difference for there to be a difference. Add to that, barrels bullets and bedding are more important...the one with the best of these, will be the best. I shoot a 6 Grendel and have been very happy with it. It's a .070 long ppc, so it's not a hugely different cartridge, at all. I like it for two apparent reasons and a couple of more subtle ones. One, basically no case forming is required..just neck Lapua Grendel brass down to 6mm and you're done. You can turn necks or not. Up to you. Two, the little extra capacity makes it easier to cram enough powder in there without super long drop tubes or vibrating the case to get the powder to settle in there...and reach that upper node. With some powders and/or lots, no need for any of that. To me, those two reasons alone are enough for me to stay with it and those are not subjective benefits, but quantifiable differences. I think if roles were reversed and 99.5% of people were shooting it, we'd be asking if anything will ever de-throne it and the answer would probably be the same as this thread implies. Other reasons I like it over a ppc are more subjective and harder to prove either way. I think it's a tad more versatile and works better than a ppc if one is inclined to step up to say a 80gr bullet. I also think it's a tad better at holding tune but some powders are better at that than others too. Last thing, I can push it a tad faster than a ppc, especially with the 80's. Again, they are very similar to one another, so not much difference there.

Frankly, the case could be made that either pushing the shoulder back or blowing them out a few thou either way to optimize case capacity to available powders and even lots of powders may be worth while. But again, ya gotta be able to shoot the difference.

 

[Ccrider]

I think there are a few cartridges that might be as good as a ppc but again, ya gotta be able to shoot the difference for there to be a difference. Add to that, barrels bullets and bedding are more important...the one with the best of these, will be the best. I shoot a 6 Grendel and have been very happy with it. It's a .070 long ppc, so it's not a hugely different cartridge, at all. I like it for two apparent reasons and a couple of more subtle ones. One, basically no case forming is required..just neck Lapua Grendel brass down to 6mm and you're done. You can turn necks or not. Up to you. Two, the little extra capacity makes it easier to cram enough powder in there without super long drop tubes or vibrating the case to get the powder to settle in there...and reach that upper node. With some powders and/or lots, no need for any of that. To me, those two reasons alone are enough for me to stay with it and those are not subjective benefits, but quantifiable differences. I think if roles were reversed and 99.5% of people were shooting it, we'd be asking if anything will ever de-throne it and the answer would probably be the same as this thread implies. Other reasons I like it over a ppc are more subjective and harder to prove either way. I think it's a tad more versatile and works better than a ppc if one is inclined to step up to say a 80gr bullet. I also think it's a tad better at holding tune but some powders are better at that than others too. Last thing, I can push it a tad faster than a ppc, especially with the 80's. Again, they are very similar to one another, so not much difference there.

Frankly, the case could be made that either pushing the shoulder back or blowing them out a few thou either way to optimize case capacity to available powders and even lots of powders may be worth while. But again, ya gotta be able to shoot the difference.

What speed is the “upper node,” with what weight bullet and twist barrel?

 

[COLT45SA]

6MM ARC................????

Possible~! Time will tell if reloading components ever become available~!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What speed is the “upper node,” with what weight bullet and twist barrel?

About 3650 with 68s and about 3450 with 80s but these are NOT starting loads and you may not get there safely in your gun. Both are standing on the throttle! I prefer to load it at upper ppc loads. Lapua brass is excellent for it. Leaves nothing on the table vs 220r brass. I run 12 twist bbls, nowadays. I started with std 13.5-14 twists but have grown to prefer the 12s

 

[cwood59]

I have to come clean. I hang my head in shame. I started this post truly because I am going to get back into short range benchrest. I am going to start with a 10.5 gun. I just wanted to get some current insight on sticking with 6PPC. I have a way broader budget these days but still want to cut to the chase on putting together a rig.

Not to sidetrack my own post, but where does a guy go to these days to get a real carbon fiber shell LV stock of the same design of the past Scoville's, Robertson, Leonard, Scarborough.....etc?

I sincerely appreciate everybody's input.

Curtis
Cypress, TX

 

[Scott haywood]

I have to come clean. I hang my head in shame. I started this post truly because I am going to get back into short range benchrest. I am going to start with a 10.5 gun. I just wanted to get some current insight on sticking with 6PPC. I have a way broader budget these days but still want to cut to the chase on putting together a rig.

Not to sidetrack my own post, but where does a guy go to these days to get a real carbon fiber shell LV stock of the same design of the past Scoville's, Robertson, Leonard, Scarborough.....etc?

I sincerely appreciate everybody's input.

Curtis
Cypress, TX

Curtis, I would seriously look around for a used rifle in a Scarborough or Scoville stock. I’ve picked up 4 of them over the years for $2500 or less with Bat DS actions. And in the Texas area too, make A day trip to some of the matches in the area and ask around. There are well attended group matches at New Braunfels would be a good place to start.

 

[Ccrider]

About 3650 with 68s and about 3450 with 80s but these are NOT starting loads and you may not get there safely in your gun. Both are standing on the throttle! I prefer to load it at upper ppc loads. Lapua brass is excellent for it. Leaves nothing on the table vs 220r brass. I run 12 twist bbls, nowadays. I started with std 13.5-14 twists but have grown to prefer the 12s

While 3450 is attainable, 3650 with a 68gr. seems faster than any ppc I have heard of.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

While 3450 is attainable, 3650 with a 68gr. seems faster than any ppc I have heard of.

Again, it's a Grendel...a tad bigger than a ppc, fwiw. I've never seen 3450 with 80's and a ppc either. What powder?

 

[Ccrider]

Again, it's a Grendel...a tad bigger than a ppc, fwiw. I've never seen 3450 with 80's and a ppc either. What powder?

Me either. I was referring to 3450 being attainable in a ppc with 68gr. bullets.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Me either. I was referring to 3450 being attainable in a ppc with 68gr. bullets.

A few weeks before The Nationals, I checked the velocity of my own 68 grn flat base out of my .055 throat 6PPC. This was with a LabRadar.
3430 fps out of a 21 inch long barrel.

I think that is pretty standard for most competitors shooting in the upper load window.

I have a pretty good 1-12 twist barrel that I throated to shoot the Barts 80 BT. Using 4895, it topped out at 3220 fps with good accuracy.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Me either. I was referring to 3450 being attainable in a ppc with 68gr. bullets.

I've been revisiting some loads that I haven't used it a while. Not much time of late but 30.6gr of n133 shot tiny but I didn't chrono it. No pressure signs though. It fits nicely in the case, lightly compressed with no drop tube, straight from the measure.