Will the 6PPC Ever Be Surpassed in the Short Range Benchrest Game ?

[357Mag]

I have too much time on my hands. I have been out of the 100/200 LV/HV benchrest game for over 15 years now. I'm just about ready to retire and was thinking about taking another look at that game. I still look at NBRSA and IBS match results from time to time and it seems like the 6PPC will never be a "has been" in short range benchrest competition. I guess that's why I shot it back then. Heck, I still have 1 8-lb unopened jug of VV N133 (marked 7.5.2008) plus a few 1-lb'ers. I, like everybody else, love the 6PPC. But you just have to wonder what's coming down the pike. I keep thinking about putting together another 10.5 lb. gun as I sold all my guns back then (kept all my reloading stuff). I'm older, not necessarily wiser, more profitable, and have a lot more insurance. I wish there were more "stock options" like there was 20-30 years ago.

Please chime in with any passing thoughts.

Thanks

CWood -

Howdy !

Pindell & Palmisano spent some time looking into a cartridge design they thought might
be the next step beyond the 6PPC.

Their idea was based on igniting the powder columne from the top, and they were using a tube from the primer pocket up through the powder charge; to route the ignition forces.

Rather than try to supplant the 6PPC, move the goal posts ?
Perhaps the achievable accuracy level could be inhibited for a time; by instituting new rules that would require say.... only use of monolithic bullets ( just an example ); or some other
rules change or mandate ?

Shooters would and could still win, but....... the level of accuracy taken to win would have received a re-set. Wouldn't necessarily require ( all ) new equipment, but then again.....

Maybe it would take some time to get back to the accuracy level, agg's, and world records present today ? You could still use a 6PPC to " get there " of course, but then... maybe a new cartridge could come to the fore ?

Under such circumstances, perhaps the 6PPC would no longer be dominant; and then a modicum of cartridge design innovation might be seen for short range BR work ?

Not sayin' this would be universally praised.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not sayin' this would be universally praised.

That's putting it nicely. Almost politician like! Lol!

 

[jackieschmidt]

The primer tube thing was tried by the likes of Elmer Keith way back in the ‘50’s in attempts to achieve more efficiency in a given case, especially cases that tended to be long and skinny for the bullet diameter, such wildcats like the 25 Niedner, which later was to become the 25/06.

The results were inconclusive, but I think the shorter, fatter powder column of many of todays modern chamberings in a way accomplishes the same thing.

Here is a question. If Palmisano and Pindell had used ANY case other Than the 220 Russian as the parent case for their idea, would there be so much inherited hatred for the 6PPC that seems to permeate many shooters outside of Short Range BENCHREST.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The primer time thing was tried by the likes of Elmer Keith way back in the ‘50’s in attempts to achieve more efficiency in a given case, especially cases that tended to be long and skinny for the bullet diameter, such wildcats like the 25 Niedner, which later was to become the 25/06.

The results were inconclusive, but I think the shorter, fatter powder column of many of todays modern chamberings in a way accomplishes the same thing.

Here is a question. If Palmisano and Pindell had used ANY case other Than the 220 Russian as the parent case for their idea, would there be so much inherited hatred for the 6PPC that seems to permeate many shooters outside of Short Range BENCHREST.

I kinda doubt there are many that "hate" the ppc. I know I don't. It's a great cartridge, no doubt. Outside of benchrest, I'd say a quite small percentage even know what a ppc is, much less that it's often formed(or derived) from a Russian case. And the only ones that would care how others feel about it are likely the ppc shooters, themselves. No one else knows or cares, imho.

 

[cwood59]

The primer time thing was tried by the likes of Elmer Keith way back in the ‘50’s in attempts to achieve more efficiency in a given case, especially cases that tended to be long and skinny for the bullet diameter, such wildcats like the 25 Niedner, which later was to become the 25/06.

The results were inconclusive, but I think the shorter, fatter powder column of many of todays modern chamberings in a way accomplishes the same thing.

Here is a question. If Palmisano and Pindell had used ANY case other Than the 220 Russian as the parent case for their idea, would there be so much inherited hatred for the 6PPC that seems to permeate many shooters outside of Short Range BENCHREST.

I think you nailed it.........

 

[tmwinds]

The 6PPC has never held the 100 yard group record.

 

[LHSmith]

The 6PPC has never held the 100 yard group record.

Group records are one offs. Aggregates win matches in Registered Competition.

 

[BoydAllen]

CWood -

Howdy !

Pindell & Palmisano spent some time looking into a cartridge design they thought might
be the next step beyond the 6PPC.

Their idea was based on igniting the powder columne from the top, and they were using a tube from the primer pocket up through the powder charge; to route the ignition forces.

Rather than try to supplant the 6PPC, move the goal posts ?
Perhaps the achievable accuracy level could be inhibited for a time; by instituting new rules that would require say.... only use of monolithic bullets ( just an example ); or some other
rules change or mandate ?

Shooters would and could still win, but....... the level of accuracy taken to win would have received a re-set. Wouldn't necessarily require ( all ) new equipment, but then again.....

Maybe it would take some time to get back to the accuracy level, agg's, and world records present today ? You could still use a 6PPC to " get there " of course, but then... maybe a new cartridge could come to the fore ?

Under such circumstances, perhaps the 6PPC would no longer be dominant; and then a modicum of cartridge design innovation might be seen for short range BR work ?

Not sayin' this would be universally praised.


With regards,
357Mag

Why in the world would ANYONE want to do that? Sanctioning bodies are run by elected boards. I can think of no faster way to forment a revolution among all the members resulting in new boards.

 

[BoydAllen]

The 6PPC has never held the 100 yard group record.

But all matches are won based on average group size. You can shoot small, but if you can't agg. you won't win events.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The 6PPC has never held the 100 yard group record.

Group records are one offs. Aggregates win matches in Registered Competition.

Both true but for some reason, you never hear either argument when discussing Mac McMillans .009 group with a 222, before the ppc was crowned king. Lots of people defend a ppc without even trying something else. Much less spending even 1/10th the time with it as they do with a ppc. It takes work, if you're gonna beat a ppc at its own game.

 

[ebb]

Jackie mentioned the best as I see it, 30BR, 22 PPC or waldog, Besides that I don't know of anything close. But what I was wandering is anybody doing anything new and completely different? All of the good ones are based on a 220 Russian or the BR case. A few years back everyone was talking about getting more accuracy from a short fat case more so than long and slender. I was thinking soon we would be seeing something with a huge case lake a Lapua 338 or RUM only shortened enough to hold a small charge of powder like the 6PPC holds.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Jackie mentioned the best as I see it, 30BR, 22 PPC or waldog, Besides that I don't know of anything close. But what I was wandering is anybody doing anything new and completely different? All of the good ones are based on a 220 Russian or the BR case. A few years back everyone was talking about getting more accuracy from a short fat case more so than long and slender. I was thinking soon we would be seeing something with a huge case lake a Lapua 338 or RUM only shortened enough to hold a small charge of powder like the 6PPC holds.

ebb, the straight 6 Grendel is the closest thing I've seen to bettering a ppc. 220 and 6 beggs are both very good, as are the 22ppc and 22ppc short. There are others, like the grinch, waldog and talldog that can both run with it.

I've said it before and will again...UBR is the only format that pits many good cartridges head to head and with a diverse end result. If one was truly better and as dominant as some would make it sound, nothing but a ppc would win head to head. But yet it happens with some regularity, even with a majority using a ppc

 

[ebb]

Yea I am a little out there on most of that stuff. I don't see the grinch and Beggs as being enough different from a PPC to be anything but a PPC with a face lift. I am wondering if as good as the PPC and it variant's are is anybody working on anything really different? The old thread resurfaced about Mr Turner and his 30/30, but I think if he put his mind to it he could be competitive with a 38 special.

 

[cwood59]

................seems like I may wanna wait until this thread fizzles out before I decide/commit to build components.....this is truly interesting. I have always been an information hoarder. All of you gentlemen bring something to the table. Thanks again.

Curtis

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yea I am a little out there on most of that stuff. I don't see the grinch and Beggs as being enough different from a PPC to be anything but a PPC with a face lift. I am wondering if as good as the PPC and it variant's are is anybody working on anything really different? The old thread resurfaced about Mr Turner and his 30/30, but I think if he put his mind to it he could be competitive with a 38 special.

I understand but is a 6bra still a 6br? A 6 BRX/Dasher? Is a 30-06 a 308? Where is your line? They are all different but are all cousins too.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

................seems like I may wanna wait until this thread fizzles out before I decide/commit to build components.....this is truly interesting. I have always been an information hoarder. All of you gentlemen bring something to the table. Thanks again.

Curtis

You can't really go wrong with several options that have been mentioned. The way I see it is, lead, follow or get out of the way of those trying something outside of the norm. Nothing wrong with the tried and true ppc, until people start stating things like nothing can ever beat it. Ever is a long time and it's pedestal may be artificially high. That's all and not intended to take away from the fact that the ppc is awesome and may never be toppled but it can be beaten and frequently is, when something else is fired, head to head.

 

[AlNyhus]

Curtis, I'd heed Scott's advice and look for a Scoville/Scarborough/Tony Larson/Kelbly KLP, etc package.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[Mulligan]

Lots of folks were shooting some form of a Talldog (0.080” short br) when 220 Russian brass was no longer available. I believe most were using Remington 7mm BR brass to do this.
Did all that effort go by the wayside because the brass was more difficult to make afte Lapua started making 220 Russian brass?
I mostly shoot a Waldog because, in my hands, nothing has came close to the accuracy I get from it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not winning either.
Will the Talldog run with a PPC?
CW

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Lots of folks were shooting some form of a Talldog (0.080” short br) when 220 Russian brass was no longer available. I believe most were using Remington 7mm BR brass to do this.
Did all that effort go by the wayside because the brass was more difficult to make afte Lapua started making 220 Russian brass?
I mostly shoot a Waldog because, in my hands, nothing has came close to the accuracy I get from it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not winning either.
Will the Talldog run with a PPC?
CW

I would say yes to both counts. There are others with more experience than I have with the tall dog but I don't think there is anyone with more experience with a 6 Grendel, but I might be wrong. I just don't know who it'd be. I've shot it pretty exclusively since 2016 for short range br, with more than my share of success.

 

[Ccrider]

One thing you need to look at is where will you get brass? No Lapua 220 Russian available. No 6.5 Grendel Lapua out there. Lapua 6br is scarce to non existent.