Anyone using 69 gr TMKs ??? I have 2 or 3 boxes if anyone wants to trade for something I use. If you're local to SF Bay Area I would trade for LRPs.
77 tmk for deer?
- Thread starter iukamedic
- Start date
HandgunHTR
Gold $$ Contributor
As with all hunting, putting the bullet where it will kill matters more than how big the bullet is.
The 77 grain TMK has proven over and over that if you put it in the vitals of a thin-skinned game animal (deer, elk, bear, groundhog, yote, etc) it will create an effective wound channel and reliably kill that animal.
Most people believe that Sectional Density, Ballistic Coefficient, bullet velocity, or bullet diameter will somehow make up for bad shot placement. I hate to break it to you, but that simply isn't true. It is where the bullet impacts that is most important. I have always found it amusing that the same people that advocate for a .243, or 6.5 Creed, or 7-08 for kids because they are "easier to shoot" are the same folks who demand that a .308 or 30-06 is the minimum for big whitetails when the person asking is a grown man.
I have taken quite a few big game animals with chamberings that most would consider sub-par. The buck in my avatar was taken with a 7TCU shooting a 120 grain Nosler Partition. I have killed a 400+ pound black bear and two trophy Axis deer with a 6.5 Grendel shooting 115 grain monometal bullets. I have multiple whitetail kills with with the 6.5 Grendel and 7TCU and I plan on using a 7-08AI for moose this fall.
The bullet matters more than the headstamp and where you put the bullet makes a whole lot more difference than how big it is.
The 77 grain TMK has proven over and over that if you put it in the vitals of a thin-skinned game animal (deer, elk, bear, groundhog, yote, etc) it will create an effective wound channel and reliably kill that animal.
Most people believe that Sectional Density, Ballistic Coefficient, bullet velocity, or bullet diameter will somehow make up for bad shot placement. I hate to break it to you, but that simply isn't true. It is where the bullet impacts that is most important. I have always found it amusing that the same people that advocate for a .243, or 6.5 Creed, or 7-08 for kids because they are "easier to shoot" are the same folks who demand that a .308 or 30-06 is the minimum for big whitetails when the person asking is a grown man.
I have taken quite a few big game animals with chamberings that most would consider sub-par. The buck in my avatar was taken with a 7TCU shooting a 120 grain Nosler Partition. I have killed a 400+ pound black bear and two trophy Axis deer with a 6.5 Grendel shooting 115 grain monometal bullets. I have multiple whitetail kills with with the 6.5 Grendel and 7TCU and I plan on using a 7-08AI for moose this fall.
The bullet matters more than the headstamp and where you put the bullet makes a whole lot more difference than how big it is.
My Canadian black bear outfitter told me that a hunter was coming in the following week to hunt bears with his 22-250. I said that I didn't think that was a very good choice. The outfitter said that the guy was a "regular" and takes his bear every year with the same rifle. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
iukamedic
Silver $$ Contributor
I just have some of those 77 tmk put away and was thinking in a pinch this might work well. I shot a deer With a 300 blackout at about 70 yards that never took a step. Lots of damage from the 110 vmax. We have had problems with coyotes around the place. Heck I’ve even had one attack one of my dogs on a walk. I try to dispatch those each time I can. Any way just thinking that the tmk might fit several roles in an easy to carry not bundle some package. I like the blackout for less than 100 yards but would like to have something effective for farther if need be. Thanks for your comment.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Scoff if you like but there’s a lot of 77 TMK carnage with pictures in this thread:
.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.
DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...rokslide.com
I'm not aiming this at you - so please don't take offense;
The author of that article in one sentence, claims "this round in a .223 can be used as a DEDICATED BIG GAME load". In another sentence, he says "a .223 is very marginal on big game" and "you might lose an animal", etc. I'd not call that any kind of a professional endorsement. He went out and shot an animal or two - and like the folks who detail their lives on Facebook and say "this is the best restaurant ever" - and there are believers on those spoken words.
I mean - we all know we could kill railroad cars full of deer with a .22 short rimfire. And I'd hope it is not just the law that would stop us from doing it. A truck load of dead deer shot with a .22 rimfire won't change my mind about not using such. And I realize a 77 grain jacketed bullet is in a whole different class - but it is a lead core, non-bonded target bullet with a thin jacket. Like what else would I NOT want? The poster asks for the opinion of using such. Those offering advice that there are much better bullets out there are undeniably correct in that there are other leaded bullets that have thicker jackets to keep the bullet from fragmenting and allow deeper penetration, as well as those which are bonded or are of a copper construction which hold together better and penetrate with a large wound channel. Sierra offers a different choice for that purpose. If someone called Sierra - what would they say about using their target bullets on deer? Sure - they know it "can" be done, but their advice will be different.
If it were me, I'd use the heaviest Barnes bullet your barrel twist will accommodate or a heavy hunting bullet designed for the task. That would be if I used a .223. Aside from being illegal in my state for big game, I'd still opt for something with more octane, given the choice. I do realize not everyone has the ability to make choices - and that is fine too.
WSnyder
Silver $$ Contributor
No offense taken but did we read the same thing? Article? I linked to a thread on the internet not an article. I don't see any of those statements in the guys opening post? With over 4000 posts in that thread no doubt someone said those things and some other things too 
Limited data. I've only put two WTs on the ground with 77 TMKs using my suppressed Mk12. I purposely put the rounds in the boiler room to see how they perform.
I've killed a few WTs with Bergers. These 77 TMKs, based on those two deer I mentioned, behaved like the Bergers. Nice little hole into the lung for a couple of inches or so, then total destruction thereafter.
Again, limited data.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Read thru there and you will find it (not too far in). The point I was attempting to make is people use a lot of bullets for things that they were not intended for. It doesn't mean they won't work - just that there are bullets (in the same weight class and smaller) that are designed to do a better job. Why not use them?No offense taken but did we read the same thing? Article? I linked to a thread on the internet not an article. I don't see any of those statements in the guys opening post? With over 4000 posts in that thread no doubt someone said those things and some other things too
HandgunHTR
Gold $$ Contributor
Read the entire thread, pay specific attention to the pictures of actual animals taken with that bullet, not the statements or anecdotes of people who don't post the receipts to back up their statements. The combo of the 77 grain TMK and the .223 platform flat out kill deer.
One of the key items in that thread that is often overlooked by the nay-sayers is how much easier it is to put that bullet on target, compared to heavier recoiling cartridge/rifle combos. Recoil breeds poor shooting. Period. I don't care how much of a billy-bad-ass you are, the more recoil you introduce the worse your shooting is going to be. Add muzzle blast into the mix and it is just compounded. Hunting doesn't take place from the shooting bench. If your platform is 1MOA at the bench, then it is probably closer to 2-3MOA in the real world hunting situations most of us find ourselves in. Add in recoil anticipation and that number jumps up to 4-5MOA pretty quick. Again, for some on this forum, that isn't the case, but for your average hunter/shooter, it is and I feel like it is the responsibility of those of us with the knowledge to help educate those who don't have it. So, this incessant need some have to try to push people towards big, heavy recoiling rifles that shoot bonded or mono-metal bullets for whitetail deer, is, in my opinion, the irresponsible information being put out there. Not the use of a .223 with a proven performer of a bullet.
It is amazing to me how our fore-fathers ever put food on the table when all they had were anemic rounds shooting soft lead bullets.
Very well state, thank you for your view
WSnyder
Silver $$ Contributor
Or with some sort of a stick with a rock tied on the end of it.
I agree with you. This debate reminds me of the guys who buy light j frame 38s for their wives to carry because theyre small and dainty. Not realizing 38+p can be punishing in an aluminum framed revolver. Yielding poor shooting habits and little to no practice. The reverse happens when talking deer cartridges. Light plastic stock deer rifles chambered in 308, 30-06 or other common chambering and like you said marksmanship can suffer for the average guy. My wife would most likely never became a hunter if michigan didnt start allowing specifically dimensioned straight wall cartridges in my area. A 44 magnum rifle is a kitten compared to the 12ga slug gun I used before. This year Im going to a rifle zone for a few days and Im taking an ar15 shooting 77tmk loads and a 6x45 ar15. I dont feel under calibered at all.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Look, people are going to use what they like to use and what they feel works for them. You should continue to use your 77 if that is what works for you. Pics of dead deer taken with a bullet I'd rather not use doesn't change my mind about what I'd use. So - if you want to say here, on this forum, that your 77 target bullet is the best bullet for the job - and BETTER than the various hunting bullets made for that purpose -go ahead. We all have our opinions. Sorry you think I'm irresponsible for offering examples of better bullets as options. I think telling people that a target bullet is the best bullet for shooting deer is pretty whack - but you can do as you wish. After all - this is a forum of people offering up opinions - yours and mine.
Using your analogy of hunters shooting 4 to 5 MOA at big game, all the more reason to use a bullet that better ensures a lethal outcome. It is presumable that, because the average hunter isn't such a great shot and because they often take shots way beyond their ability, some States don't even allow .223's for big game. Shots not well-placed are likely to be less lethal than those fired from a larger caliber. Using your 4 to 5 MOA analogy again, if a hunter shoots at a deer even 250 yards away, he will be lucky to hit the vital zone! So - if you are going to hand the AVERAGE hunter a caliber that some States think too small and pair it with a bullet not even designed for the job - that's not the ideal combo in their hands. That same combo put in the hands of the guys on this site who have competed for decades and shoot long distance, I think the outcome would be 1,000% different. I know I'd have no problem killing a deer with the 77, But I'd choose another bullet because I can get one designed to a better job, on average, and with a higher degree of lethality when shot placement is not perfect. So, what is the problem with that? It seems you think I don't believe that 77 will easily kill deer. I already said one can kill a railroad car of deer with a .22 short rimfire. Maybe you missed that?
WSnyder
Silver $$ Contributor
Designed designed designed. If people never took a chance and used something not designed for the original purpose we wouldn’t be killing things with stuff like Berger “Hunting” bullets because they were never designed as “hunting” bullets in the first place. But here we are killing truckloads of stuff with bullets that weren’t originally designed as hunting bullets. Yeah Berger fought it in the beginning and didn’t condone the use but here we are decades later with little orange boxes that say hunting on them. If it works it works, I don’t need someone to tell me I’m not supposed to do it cause they didn’t design it for that. Rebels gonna rebel
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HandgunHTR
Gold $$ Contributor
Nope, I didn't miss that. But, you obviously missed my point regarding performance of people in hunting situations. A 4-5MOA gun isn't going to be an effective hunting platform whether you are using a .223 or a 338 Lapua Mag. The difference is that a .223 is less likely to be a 4-5MOA gun because it is light-recoiling and cheap to practice with. Both of those make for a combo that will take your "average shooter" and make them into a 1-2MOA shooter. There is data in that thread about percentages of first time hits using different rifle platforms/chamberings at various distances. It is pretty enlightening.
I went through my own journey back when I was shooting IHMSA. I started shooting field pistol with a .44 Mag. I quickly dropped to a .357, then .38. By the middle point of my second year, I switched over to .22 Hornet and my scores went up dramatically. The same when I went from shooting a 7-30Waters in Big Bore, to shooting a 7x47. Less recoil allowed me to focus on follow-through and I was practicing more because it wasn't punishing me. It made me a better shooter overall.
At the end of the day, shoot what you want to shoot, but the days of the "premium hunting bullet" being better at killing deer than others is long gone and because of that, smaller chamberings do just fine on thin-skinned animals.
Years ago in our deer hunting club I deer hunted with a guy that shot a 300 Weatherby magnum I dare say he cripple more deer than anybody else. I ask him one day how good is that gun group 100 yards he reply was I never shoot this gun unless I’m shooting at a deer it kicks too hard ! Personally, I’ve always believed it’s more important. Where are you hit them than what you hit them with. You’ve got to know not only your limitations, but the limitations of what you hunting with. And yes a 77 will kill a deer if the shooter does his part but I also know there is thinks better and give more margin of error
just my $0.02
just my $0.02
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Non-bonded, thinly jacketed, copper-jacketed target bullets have been around for roughly hundred years +/-. During all the time they have existed, hunters (like Barnes), the fellow who started Sierra Bullets and others have strived to make better hunting bullets due to the shortcomings of using the standard cup-and-core bullet on game. And with each decade that has passed, better bullets have been produced which offer undeniable improvements. So, if you can explain to me, why are they no longer better than the same cup-and-core design of the 77 TMK? It has nothing to do with modern arms firing them or the powder or primers as cup and core bullets were able to be driven to current speeds before. Surely it isn't because hunters who can't stand recoil shoot better with a lower recoiling rifle and that now makes the TMK a better bullet than the premium bullets. I offered up a suggestion on a better bullet in the SAME caliber. So, there is no recoil argument here. I'm not knocking the TMK. But if you believe that none of the premium bullets are superior to the 77 TMK - shoot on, brother.
3Ackleys
Gold $$ Contributor
So how do you quantify "undeniable improvements"? Have you any first hand experience comparing any of these "premium bullets" to the 77 TMK in ballistic gel, game animals, or any other test media?
Just because the manufacturer labels them a certain way doesn't mean it is so. In my first hand knowledge, the 77 TMK creates a bigger wound cavity than any other .224" bullet, and a lot of so called hunting bullets up to and including 168 gr. .308".
Target bullet is a name on the box. Most Berger target bullets have a thicker jacket than their hunting bullets. Myself and lot of other hunters I know and trust use the Berger 215 grain .308" Hybrid target bullet. Many hundreds of elk have been taken by lots of hunters with this bullet. I can say without reservation that the 215 Berger Hybrid target is the finest elk killing bullet yet invented.
Some of this bullet labeling by manufacturers is lets say a little slight of hand. They sell bullets to more than U.S. hunters and target shooters. Military contracts here and abroad are involved. Military buyers will not buy things like "hunting" or hollow point ammo, so things like the Berger OTM (open tip match)Tactical- are invented. The OTM IS a hollow point bullet without the name hollow point on the box.
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