• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

223 for whitetail?

This is my opinion, when we are hunting game we should strive to make the most ethical kill we can!! Why in the world would we even consider using a .223 on whitetail deer when we can use a more ethical cartridge?
Someone in an earlier post compared a deer to a man, I have never seen a man stand flat footed and jump 5 ft fence!!
 
This is my opinion, when we are hunting game we should strive to make the most ethical kill we can!! Why in the world would we even consider using a .223 on whitetail deer when we can use a more ethical cartridge?
Someone in an earlier post compared a deer to a man, I have never seen a man stand flat footed and jump 5 ft fence!!
What makes a cartridge ethical?
 
What makes a cartridge ethical?
A cartridge that you don’t have to worry about making a perfect shot, is the deer close enough? Is the angle right? Can I keep my heart from beating out of my chest so I can hold the rifle steady enough to make a perfect shot?
Like I said In my previous post this is my opinion. You do you, if you want to use a .223 then go for it but I will always choose a bigger cartridge.
 
A cartridge that you don’t have to worry about making a perfect shot, is the deer close enough? Is the angle right? Can I keep my heart from beating out of my chest so I can hold the rifle steady enough to make a perfect shot?
Like I said In my previous post this is my opinion. You do you, if you want to use a .223 then go for it but I will always choose a bigger cartridge.
So in other words, there is no such thing as an "ethical cartridge". I've seen deer walk away from poorly placed 300 Winchester magnums.

The cartridge doesn't make a rifle steady or not.

Where is the line drawn? 243 Winchester? 50 BMG? 20mm?

There is a whole slew of success from .223s on deer in this thread. Yes, you do you, but don't for one second believe I'm unethical.
 
So in other words, there is no such thing as an "ethical cartridge". I've seen deer walk away from poorly placed 300 Winchester magnums.

The cartridge doesn't make a rifle steady or not.

Where is the line drawn? 243 Winchester? 50 BMG? 20mm?

There is a whole slew of success from .223s on deer in this thread. Yes, you do you, but don't for one second believe I'm unethical.
I think this quote from Texas Hunting Forum sums it up best.

“Turn the question around a bit: Why should a .223 be used for deer hunting? If the answer is, "It's all I have and I am 100% confident I can ethically kill a deer with it", then ok, I guess..........
It's too easy to select a better option.”
 
I think this quote from Texas Hunting Forum sums it up best.

“Turn the question around a bit: Why should a .223 be used for deer hunting? If the answer is, "It's all I have and I am 100% confident I can ethically kill a deer with it", then ok, I guess..........
It's too easy to select a better option.”
Never going to keep every one happy all of the time. Though I do tend to agree. I have little doubt that I may be able to ethically kill the deer I am after with a well placed shot inside of 200 yards. So I have a rather slim tolerance for recoil. Thus, to add a little safety factor I upped the cartridge to be utilized to 6mm ARC. I find 87 grain & 90 grain all copper bullets to be very reliable along with a 108 grain Elite hunter.

If someone else chooses to use a 22 ARC with a 70 grain CX offering, I have a very strong confidence level they have brought enough gun for the task at hand as well.
 
A .223 isn’t even legal for use on deer sized game in all states. When I hunt a state where it is legal, I ask myself if this is the rifle that I want in hand if the buck of a lifetime makes an appearance. The answer is an unequivocal no! I would rather have my grandfathers 30-30.
 
Never going to keep every one happy all of the time. Though I do tend to agree. I have little doubt that I may be able to ethically kill the deer I am after with a well placed shot inside of 200 yards. So I have a rather slim tolerance for recoil. Thus, to add a little safety factor I upped the cartridge to be utilized to 6mm ARC. I find 87 grain & 90 grain all copper bullets to be very reliable along with a 108 grain Elite hunter.

If someone else chooses to use a 22 ARC with a 70 grain CX offering, I have a very strong confidence level they have brought enough gun for the task at hand as well.

I can guarantee that a wound channel from a 77 grain TMK shot from a .223 will be much more destructive than the wound channel from an 87 or 90 grain mono shot from a 6ARC. So, which is more ethical? Which one will put this mythical "Buck of a Lifetime" down faster?

A .223 isn’t even legal for use on deer sized game in all states. When I hunt a state where it is legal, I ask myself if this is the rifle that I want in hand if the buck of a lifetime makes an appearance. The answer is an unequivocal no! I would rather have my grandfathers 30-30.

Same response here. The .223 using proper bullets will outperform that 30-30 all day, every day.


Regardless of how you might "feel", actual results matter and if you look at the thread linked earlier, you will see actual results of the .223 and 77gr TMK on all sorts of game, at variable distances (many of which are longer than 80% of hunters will ever shoot), and at all shot angles.
If you are still convinced that it isn't capable of killing a whitetail at over 200 yards or only if using "hunting" bullets, and when the deer is perfectly broadside, then I suggest you do a deep dive into what is actually required to kill deer. The worst thing that will happen is you learn something new.
 
I can guarantee that a wound channel from a 77 grain TMK shot from a .223 will be much more destructive than the wound channel from an 87 or 90 grain mono shot from a 6ARC. So, which is more ethical? Which one will put this mythical "Buck of a Lifetime" down faster?



Same response here. The .223 using proper bullets will outperform that 30-30 all day, every day.


Regardless of how you might "feel", actual results matter and if you look at the thread linked earlier, you will see actual results of the .223 and 77gr TMK on all sorts of game, at variable distances (many of which are longer than 80% of hunters will ever shoot), and at all shot angles.
If you are still convinced that it isn't capable of killing a whitetail at over 200 yards or only if using "hunting" bullets, and when the deer is perfectly broadside, then I suggest you do a deep dive into what is actually required to kill deer. The worst thing that will happen is you learn something new.
Perhaps you have a point, Yet I would expect a deer shot with the mono or the TMK would expire in a matter of seconds in either case. Though I get the added security of ample penetration from most any shot angle & lead free table fair, when shooting the monolithic offerings.
 
My mythical "buck of a lifetime" dropped in his tracks at 150 yards with a 70 gr TSX from a 14.5" 5.56. I guess I'm so unethical. Ironically, lost a buck the next season with my .270 with a 50 yard shot with the ELD-X. I guess that deer that took the .270 and likely died a long, horrible death appreciated the ethical superiority of the .270 Winchester cartridge. I felt terrible, second deer I lost in 30+ years of whitetail hunting.

This whole thing is silly.
 
I can guarantee that a wound channel from a 77 grain TMK shot from a .223 will be much more destructive than the wound channel from an 87 or 90 grain mono shot from a 6ARC. So, which is more ethical? Which one will put this mythical "Buck of a Lifetime" down faster?



Same response here. The .223 using proper bullets will outperform that 30-30 all day, every day.


Regardless of how you might "feel", actual results matter and if you look at the thread linked earlier, you will see actual results of the .223 and 77gr TMK on all sorts of game, at variable distances (many of which are longer than 80% of hunters will ever shoot), and at all shot angles.
If you are still convinced that it isn't capable of killing a whitetail at over 200 yards or only if using "hunting" bullets, and when the deer is perfectly broadside, then I suggest you do a deep dive into what is actually required to kill deer. The worst thing that will happen is you learn something new.

Thanks, but I’ll pass. While I’m not a fan of the big boomers, I own plenty of appropriate cartridges to take deer sized game and I don’t feel compelled to test the lower limits.
 
Last edited:
Tons of guys down here use .223 for deer hogs ect.. the secret? Head and neck shots. Anything else is completely pointless to them shot wise... A lot of these guys guys used to poach with a .22 lr or mag too so. Lots also do a CNS shot too but no behind the shoulder boiler room type stuff .
New on guy loved vmaxes for deer , asked him why .. said the deer in his are figured out if they hung around cattle people won't shoot them....well apparently a 40-60 GR vmax in the upper neck never exited and dropped the like a sack of taters
 
My mythical "buck of a lifetime" dropped in his tracks at 150 yards with a 70 gr TSX from a 14.5" 5.56. I guess I'm so unethical. Ironically, lost a buck the next season with my .270 with a 50 yard shot with the ELD-X. I guess that deer that took the .270 and likely died a long, horrible death appreciated the ethical superiority of the .270 Winchester cartridge. I felt terrible, second deer I lost in 30+ years of whitetail hunting.

This whole thing is silly.
I like this example because it compares one of my favorite bullets to one of my least favorite. The TSX are fantastic bullets and I would trust them on game over a plastic tipped Hornady, huge cartridge discrepancy aside. Normally I would take the bigger gun though.

I would like to see more peoples experience with TSX on game, especially the .224s. Many people shoot the heavier TSX, and theyre huge because theyre all copper. I was talking to another guy that says these hard solid bullets work better the faster they are traveling because you lose no bullet weight and they all penetrate so much that tissue damage and shock comes from velocity. Im curious in the long run with more examples, is a 50gr TSX traveling an extra 500+fps more effective and ethical than a 70gr TSX that will hit slower. I shoot the 53gr TSX in a 16" AR and they penetrate nearly as much wood as the steel core russian 7.62 ammo, gel tests ive seen are impressive for TSX, I dont think a .224 45gr TSX would have much problem with a whitetail shoulder, especially if its screaming at 3500+fps, thats not going to deflect like a Hornady thin jacket and plastic tip lead bullet.
 
It all goes back to what most have said on this thread. It depends on the size of the deer and where you hit them. Even here in Indiana, you could kill deer with a 22rf (NOT LEGALLY) so long as you shoot them in the ear. Even for a good shooter, if you're routinely close enough to shoot the dee you want to harvest in the ear with a 22rf, I would consider that to be less hunting and more pest control. You can claim that a 22rf has killed more deer in Texas, but you can't make that claim about Ohio, Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, or Indiana. While they are technically the same species in all states, I'd still argue that a cartridge that works very well for a white tail in South Carolina, Florida, and Texas may not be up to par in regions where a mature buck can approach 300 lbs on the hoof. Yes, you could still shoot one in the ear and kill it with a 22rf, or 223, but when a 300 lb B&C steps out into the field to check a doe at 200 yds, do you really want to trust that shot to a 55-75gr .224 cal bullet, or would you prefer a heavier bullet with enough momentum to punch through the shoulder blade and maintain a straight wound channel through the vitals? It's easy to say "the hunter should get closer", or "the hunter should wait for a better shot", but are you really willing to pass on a once in a lifetime buck because you didn't bring enough gun?

I have a 167" buck hanging on the wall that I only saw for 9 seconds. During that 9 seconds, he crossed roughly 100 yds of CRP ground. The closest he got was just over 200 yds. I shot him during a 20 min break between 2 thunderstorms, and when I took the shot, he had roughly 5 feet left before he was going to be out of my sight forever. I made a high shoulder shot on him with a 25-06 using a 115gr Nosler BT running a little over 3000 fps, and that was BARELY enough bullet and gun to break his spine. For the record, 200 yards is a gimme shot if I'm sitting in my deer stand, especially with that rifle and that load which has always shot sub 1/2 moa, and has given me groups well under 1/4 moa at that distance. He dropped, and when I got to him he was still breathing. When we butchered him, the bullet broke the spine behind the shoulder, but didn't penetrate it. That was the last time I ever hunted with that load out of that rifle. It's the most accurate load I've ever shot out of any rifle (and I have several that routinely shoot under 1/2 moa), and most would consider it to be a perfect load for whitetail. It would put meat in my freezer from now to eternity with no problem, and it didn't fail me, but I'll never hunt with it again.

So, yes a 223 will kill deer when its loaded properly, but that doesn't make it a good universal deer cartridge for everyone, everywhere.
A 22lr has killed more deer than any other caliber period. State doesn't matter. It's about shot placement. Yes at a certain point I wouldn't use a 17 to shoot an elk but that's not what's being talked about. I'd take that 17 to any state and without any second thoughts shoot a whitetail or even a mule deer.
 
Isn’t shot placement key to anything that delivers an object to a target?
A few years ago Minnesota legalized any center-fire .224 cartridge for deer. One fall I used my Winchester model 43 in 22Hornet, 35 grain pill with a max charge of H-110. I hunted a few days waiting for a clear standing shot. About the third day a nice young buck stuck his head out of the brush. I hit it 2" below the ear, it was dead before it hit the ground.
 
I shoot roe deer which is smaller than a whitetail at 200m usually. Vitals are relatively small I would say 5”x 5”. If I deploy my shooting sticks, I have about 5 seconds to take the shot. I just feel more comfortable with 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,842
Messages
2,204,284
Members
79,157
Latest member
Bud1029
Back
Top