223 for whitetail?

[mmcu]

If you hunt long enough with a .223 you will eventually lose deer that you would killed if you had used enough gun

I'm not disagreeing with you, but wanted to add to your statement.

If you hunt long enough, you will eventually lose an animal regardless of what cartridge is used.

 

[Pete Wass]

If our Government feels it is big enough, even with "Ball" bullets to kill big men, why should there be a question with deer?

 

[Pete Wass]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but wanted to add to your statement.

If you hunt long enough, you will eventually lose an animal regardless of what cartridge is used.

Agree. Shot Placement is everything, regardless.

 

[Pete Wass]

I helped a friend recover 100 lb a deer shot through the neck with a .308win. The bullet almost severed the wind pipe.......(Isn't that in the neck) and we tracked the deer for a few miles and part of 2 days on snow before we caught up with the deer it was still alive. Breathing through the hole under his chin. I guess. If you break their spine or disrupt the spinal cord they will for sure go down. If you don't they may not. The spine in a deers neck is about 11/2 inches wide and maybe 1 foot long. I'm not a good enough shot so that I would think that would be the best place to shoot at if a deer will give you some other option.

The last several deed I shot I shot at the neck, spine, shoulder junction and they died instantly. One has to be confident that their rifle will shoot inside an inch and good enough to make the bullet go there. No substitute for accuracy and marksmanship.

I used Nosler Plastic tipped bullets and those bullets made a nickel sized hole right through the animals. Very accurate bullets and why I used them.

 

[gpoldblue]

There are ethical hunters and there are unethical hunters. The woods are full of unethical hunters that will take running shots at deer 200-300yds across a clearcut with a AR-15 blasting away or take shots at deer running straight way shooting at the back end. You can kill 'em with an ice pick too,but there are alot better choices.....in fact,I know a guy who killed a deer with a flashlight....one of those Kel light steel bodied.
If you can pick your shots ethically,that's fine,but if you take shots as they come under field conditions,
I think you owe it to the animal to make a quick,decisive,and sure kill. If you have to guess and hope you have enough gun......you need to rethink your choices.
Good luck and stay safe.

 

[DShortt]

If our Government feels it is big enough, even with "Ball" bullets to kill big men, why should there be a question with deer?

There's been some argument as to what the true intentions were regarding the 5.56×45. Guaranteed lethality? No, that wasn't one of them. A few moments of consideration by any critical thinker will reason that out.
I really don't care what anyone takes deer hunting. If the state game commission has deemed it legal where you are hunting then it's a legal choice where you are hunting.

It would not be my first choice. Nor my second, third, forth......

 

[dvraa]

I have killed a number of deer with a 22LR. Put one in their ear or through an eye and they are dead. Even killed some with behind the shoulder broadside lung shots. These were shot as targets of necessity for the meat to feed the family during ruff times. This does not make the 22LR a deer hunting caliber. Yes the 223 will kill any deer that ever walked and yes they are making better bullets BUT that still does not make the 223 a deer hunting caliber in my book. Deer don't always stand still and they don't always present that PERFECT shot angle and when that happens bad things happen. A 243 Winchester shooting a 100 gr bullet is what I classify the bottom end of a real deer caliber.

 

[dvraa]

I've shot couple dozen with a .22 rf, ( all having been hit by cars). Some still very mobile and had to shoot them on the run. Not the best choice of calibers but it's all I had with me at those times . I always got the job done though
One deer season I used my Winchester Model 43 in 22Hornet. Used a 35 grain pill, shot a buck 2" below his ear, dead when he hit the ground. So anyway, anything will work if you put the bullet in the right spot

 

[Lefty2506]

If our Government feels it is big enough, even with "Ball" bullets to kill big men, why should there be a question with deer?

People are predators. Pound for pound, predators are normally a lot easier to kill than prey. I've seen plenty of deer run off after being hit and/or run completely over on the highway. I've never seen a person get back up from such an encounter, let alone run off into the woods.

We had the good fortune (not sure what else I can call it) of seeing a decent 10 pt die during the 2023/24 season that had an arrow sticking out of it. It was a high lung shot that caught both lungs. It fell over dead standing next to a hot doe at around 10:30 am. It had been shot on the neighboring property the evening prior at around 5pm. The guy who watched it, called the neighbor and helped him retrieve the deer. Generally speaking, even a high double lung shot kills almost anything in less than 30 sec. This was a combination of sub-optimal shot placement combined with a freak occurrence, but we've had similar things happen during archery season in the past. That same year, the hunter who watched the afore mentioned buck killed a nice 148" buck using a 2 blade broadhead. Shot placement wasn't ideal, but it wasn't terrible. There was NO blood trail, and I do mean NONE. He could see the arrow sticking out both sides of the buck as it ran off. I was hunting with him that day, and I moved to a different stand while he and 2 others searched for blood for about 2 hrs with no luck. I stuck a nice doe (heart shot ), so I rejoined them at that point and we started doing an area search. After another hour we gave up the area search, and he and the others went back towards the creek (near where it was shot) thinking it might have double back for water. I took a completely different path back because every deer I've seen pass through that area in the past 40 years has come from one of 2 places, and we hadn't searched the other route at all. I found him laying in the lane way 15' from one of our stands (about 150 yds from where he was shot), dead as a door nail. I tried to back track him to find the blood trail, and only found 3 SMALL drops of blood over the first 30 yds of the trail.

I know there's a HUGE difference between a 223 (or ANY centerfire rifle cartridge), and archery equipment, but you have to admit that a 2" broadhead does cut an awfully big hole. Even a standard 1-1/8" broadhead leaves a hole as big as what I'd expect out of a proper .224 hunting bullet. That doesn't mean that I'm going to hang up my crossbow and only use my Savage ML with a 300gr bullet, but it DOES mean that my muzzleloader provides a MUCH larger margin of error than what I can get with any kind of archery equipment. (BTW, none of us will EVER use a 2 blade broadhead again.... lol).

As far as the army considering 5.56 ball ammo to be "big enough", you have to remember that military small arms are "supposed" to be designed to wound. There's plenty of documented battle field encounters to demonstrate that 5.56 ball ammo does exactly that.

 

[Knotwild]

Isn’t shot placement key to anything that delivers an object to a target?

 

[HandgunHTR]

If you hunt long enough with a .223 you will eventually lose deer that you would killed if you had used enough gun

What evidence are you basing this statement on?

 

[HandgunHTR]

There are ethical hunters and there are unethical hunters. The woods are full of unethical hunters that will take a 500 yard shot at an animal facing directly away from them because it is a buck of a lifetime and they are shooting a “man’s gun” that is guaranteed to shoot all the way through the animal because it “has lots of energy”, even though they hardly ever practice with it because it beats the crap out of them.

See, I can make up stuff and call it unethical too.

 

[gpoldblue]

See, I can make up stuff and call it unethical too.

That is NOT what I said......but since you described the scenario so well you must know 1st hand from your own personal experience.

 

[Pete Wass]

I saw an Alaska Game Warden show in which a cow moose was killed by a .117 pellet. The homeowner had shot at the moose to scare her off however the pellet went into her lung between ribs. The pellet was found during the autopsy because there didn't appear to be a bullet hole so things stranger than fiction can and do happen. As stated above, Shot placement is everything.

 

[SD guy]

If our Government feels it is big enough, even with "Ball" bullets to kill big men, why should there be a question with deer?

I will have to disagree on this one. Our government chooses this round with ball bullet with the primary intent of wounding the enemy. The enemy may may end up incurring fatal wounds from this round. Make no mistake the primary intent is to wound the enemy & render the battle mates rather ineffective as well for a time while they save their fallen.

So this does not mean that I am suggesting no one should ever use the 223 for hunting deer. Rather if you do find yourself using this rifle for deer, I would strongly recommend carefully consideration on the projectile to be used. Majority of the projectiles this round has been loaded with has not been assembled with the task being discussed in mind. Though there are a hand full of choices that have been loaded with this very task in mind.

Now should you decide on more gun for the task at hand, the bullet selection is still important. Yes shot placement may be most important of all.

 

[Pete Wass]

I will have to disagree on this one. Our government chooses this round with ball bullet with the primary intent of wounding the enemy. The enemy may may end up incurring fatal wounds from this round. Make no mistake the primary intent is to wound the enemy & render the battle mates rather ineffective as well for a time while they save their fallen.

So this does not mean that I am suggesting no one should ever use the 223 for hunting deer. Rather if you do find yourself using this rifle for deer, I would strongly recommend carefully consideration on the projectile to be used. Majority of the projectiles this round has been loaded with has not been assembled with the task being discussed in mind. Though there are a hand full of choices that have been loaded with this very task in mind.

Now should you decide on more gun for the task at hand, the bullet selection is still important. Yes shot placement may be most important of all.

I don't agree with your synopsis. The Government was interested in reducing weight, both in the rifle and ammo so the ammo carrier could carry more. There sure have been a lot of folks killed by AR's overtime here in this country. The Police Departments wouldn't use them is they only wanted to wound folks would they?.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I will have to disagree on this one. Our government chooses this round with ball bullet with the primary intent of wounding the enemy. The enemy may may end up incurring fatal wounds from this round. Make no mistake the primary intent is to wound the enemy & render the battle mates rather ineffective as well for a time while they save their fallen.

So this does not mean that I am suggesting no one should ever use the 223 for hunting deer. Rather if you do find yourself using this rifle for deer, I would strongly recommend carefully consideration on the projectile to be used. Majority of the projectiles this round has been loaded with has not been assembled with the task being discussed in mind. Though there are a hand full of choices that have been loaded with this very task in mind.

Now should you decide on more gun for the task at hand, the bullet selection is still important. Yes shot placement may be most important of all.

I don't agree with your synopsis. The Government was interested in reducing weight, both in the rifle and ammo so the ammo carrier could carry more. There sure have been a lot of folks killed by AR's overtime here in this country. The Police Departments wouldn't use them is they only wanted to wound folks would they?.

Weight reduction was a distant secondary benefit to going with the 5.56 as the main service round.

The primary reason from changing to the 5.56 was the significantly increased hit rates. Read through the Wiki page on the 5.56.

The old wives tale about wounding is just that. Made up BS. And, no, I don’t care what your Drill Instructor told you. He was wrong. So, please let’s let that particular fairy tale just die.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

The deer that the OP missed on a hunt have died from old age while this thread has been going. Still relevant though.

 

[Rock Knocker]

There are ethical hunters and there are unethical hunters. The woods are full of unethical hunters that will take running shots at deer 200-300yds across a clearcut with a AR-15 blasting away or take shots at deer running straight way shooting at the back end. You can kill 'em with an ice pick too,but there are alot better choices.....in fact,I know a guy who killed a deer with a flashlight....on of those Kel light steel bodied.
If you can pick your shots ethically,that's fine,but if you take shots as they come under field conditions,
I think you owe it to the animal to make a quick,decisive,and sure kill. If you have to guess and hope you have enough gun......you need to rethink your choices.
Good luck and stay safe.

I like this reply. Every hunter is different and every hunter should honestly judge their abilities and tendencies. Ive hunted with a enough guys to believe some guys would be more effective with 223 than some other guys are with 30-06.

I would personally bring a bigger gun. I have over estimated a 223 and 69gr SMK on a perfect double lung shot before, the Match King and 16" 223 I knew wasnt ideal so I waited for a perfect broadside shot on a small WI doe. She ran 300yards and the bleeding for some strange reason stayed almost all underneath her hide, the blood ran down her leg and the whole far side front leg was ruined with the 223 exit probably 6 to 8 inches up and back.

I havent lost a whitetail since my first archery shot on deer when I was 14. Something about archery hunting and I am on point, lots of deer, one got away, another needed a second shot. Coyotes and duck for me, whole different story, I need a big gun and lots of shells..... Grouse and pheasant, no problem.

Of the 223 bullets I have shot my choice for whitetail would be 50gr-53gr TSX or 65gr SGK. I havent shot 223 Noslers but im sure they would have a couple good whitetail choices also.

 

[mike243]

I pretty much only take bow shots with any weapon, I figure if it works with a arrow it will work with a bullet. Never killed anything with varmit bullets, always have had a deer rifle with deer ammo in my hand. I do have some but never at the right time lol,