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Hard carbon deposits

  • Thread starter Thread starter Someoldguy
  • Start date Start date
You're confirming the results via borescope?
Yes... and kinda.....

I have used this method and was able to get tikka factory barrels free of carbon (confirmed by borescope), one wilson AR barrel, and 2 ballistic advantage AR barrels. For other factory barrels and military rifles, I did not go as far as trying to clean it down to bare metal. Then again, what I consider bare metal may be different than what you look at with a borescope. I'm still a neophyte.

For my 2 premium barrels. I have not used the patch/jag process yet. Not sure if I will. I borescoped them a few times during the first 100 rounds to check the throat and if I was getting a carbon ring. My normal cleaning method (including the free all soak) got enough of the carbon out for my purposes. Both barrels shoot very well and I usually only add the de-carbon method after 75-100 rounds.

Usually a clean down to the bare metal is something I only do if I am troubleshooting issues. FWIW, I'm not a competitor and am not shooting 1/4 groups.
 
Affordable bore scopes are a recent development and I would guess that whoever owned your .223 before you did not have a clue about the hard carbon in the barrel. Given that he did not know he had the problem, it would be logical for him to have used the usual combination of one or more solvents, patches and probably bronze brushes, although there has been enough bullshit on the internet about bronze brushes and imagined damage that the brushes may have been nylon, which would have exacerbated the problem. What this adds up to is that the stuff that you labored so hard to remove was the result of hard carbon being deposited and piling up from the first round. Now that you have removed all of that, periodic use of a suitable abrasive cleaner should keep you ahead of the problem. For this kind of work I have had good luck with the judicious use or IOSSO paste, and more recently have switched to a different form of the same material, Thorroclean and Thorroflush. My routine for these is to do a thorough cleaning including bronze brusing and patching with solvent to get down to the hard stuff. At that point I use the Thorroclean and Thorroflush, or previously IOSSO paste. My methods of application have worked very well for me, and I am meticulous with my rod work and cleaning all of it out of the barrel, off of the rod and out of the rod guide. For the IOSSO, following a procedure that I read in an interview of Tony Boyer, I use a regular black nylon bore brush, not the hard kind but the softer variety.
I fill the bristles full with the IOSSO and short stroke it, starting in the throat and working foreward with short strokes, covering the area that the bores scope showed me had hard carbon. Do not use the IOSSO turning black as an indicator. It will turn in a clean barre. For the new user, I suggest doing some experimentation by cleaning some, patching it out, and then taking a look with your bore scope. Doing this you will soon arrive at how much work with the IOSSO is needed for a given powder, caliber, and round count. I take a just enough to get the job done approach. For the Thorroclean I do something slightly different than the instructions on the bottle. For 6mm, I wrap one of the same type nylon brushes with a 1 3/8" square patch and apply the Thorroclean from the bottle, evening it out with my finger tip. There is a trick to applying the Thorroflush to a patch. It wants to bead and run off. I have found that it does a superior job of removing the Thorroclean but it irritates my skin so I simply put on some closely fitting 6 mil. disposable mechanics gloves. The trick is to let the Thorroclean wick into the patch without any pressure on the bottle, and to quit before it starts running off. I prefer the new products to IOSSO but they both do an excellent job on hard carbon. I find that if you clean regularly and thoroughly that hard carbon is manageable without too much trouble.
Boyd,
The beading of Thorroflush on the patch was a problem that I was able to mitigate to a great extent by using the twill patches from Butch's. The Thorroflush doesn't seem to bead and run off with these patches compared to my usual cotton patches.
 
You want to break down hard carbon, EGR cleaning fluid will do it, no questions asked. Just don't let it touch your stock, and you likely ought to use gloves. We used it at work on Cummins and Paccar MX engines, it will unplug 2" EGR pipes that were plugged solid and hard enough an air chisel wasn't a whole lot of use on it, comes out sparkling clean. If you went to a KW or Pete dealer, take a sealable cup with you, they'd likely give you a cupful out of the shop, little will go a long way.
 
So is JB bore paste less aggressive than Iosso or they basically the same? Can you use JB bore paste with a nylon brush as well?
I currently have and have used both. Iosso paste or Thoroclean will remove carbon deposits far faster than JB will. Iosso and Thoroclean has done a fantastic job on streaky copper as well. You could use JB with a nylon brush. I’ve used JB on a patch wrapped around a bronze brush many times. With Thoroclean I have a feeling the JB is going to sit from now on.
 
I have read several times on here it is less aggressive than iosso
I have JB, Iosso and Flitz bore cleaner on the bench.

Using a borescoe, you can easily see that scrubbing with JB takes at least twice as many cycles as either Iosso or Flitz bore cleaner.

I was rather disappointed with this as I had several tubes of JB.

ETA: Using JB on a 'softer' nylon brush works great to get the hard carbon out. I used the Tipton ones. There's some resistance to reversing them, but not a real lot.
Inspection with a borescope afterwards shows no marks from reversing nor any gouges.
 
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You want to break down hard carbon, EGR cleaning fluid will do it, no questions asked. Just don't let it touch your stock, and you likely ought to use gloves. We used it at work on Cummins and Paccar MX engines, it will unplug 2" EGR pipes that were plugged solid and hard enough an air chisel wasn't a whole lot of use on it, comes out sparkling clean. If you went to a KW or Pete dealer, take a sealable cup with you, they'd likely give you a cupful out of the shop, little will go a long way.
Have you tried it on a barrel with a carbon ring/hard carbon in the throat and checked the results with a borescope?

The reason I ask is in other threads several people reported it didn't get the hard carbon in the throat out.
Thinking the significantly higher pressure might be compacting/transforming the carbon more than in an car gas engine.
 
Have you tried it on a barrel with a carbon ring/hard carbon in the throat and checked the results with a borescope?

The reason I ask is in other threads several people reported it didn't get the hard carbon in the throat out.
Thinking the significantly higher pressure might be compacting/transforming the carbon more than in an car gas engine.
This isn't the stuff used for a cars EGR, have not tried it under a borescope, as I don't own one. Not likely so much the effect of pressure , diesels run at 1100-1200deg F on exh outlet, and the carbon is constantly exposed to that temp, which your barrel isn't doing. They have used it on dpf's housings too, they run at 1700F.
 
Very cool. Using this variety of brush allows JB to work just fine!

Do you reuse the brush? I found it's difficult to get the gunk off the brush.
Yes, I do. To conserve the IOSSO, I wrap the brush in a little foil and add more as needed. I don't worry about the stuff being black and ugly. It is going to get that way pretty fast if the barrel has much hard carbon. To be clear I only have used either IOSSO or Thorroclean after doing a regular cleaning with a lot of brushing with a fresh bronze brush, and I do that after short stroking several patches down the bore. Years ago, I decided that I did not want to brush until I had gotten everything that I could out with patches. After bronze brushing, I typically run a couple of wet patches straight through so that I will not get a false reading from the particles that have abraded off of the bronze bristles. I call this stuff "brush dust". If you look closely at a new brush and at a well used one you will see quite a difference in the ends of the bristles. and the diameter. That material ends up in the bore after brushing.
 
Yes, I do. To conserve the IOSSO, I wrap the brush in a little foil and add more as needed. I don't worry about the stuff being black and ugly. It is going to get that way pretty fast if the barrel has much hard carbon. To be clear I only have used either IOSSO or Thorroclean after doing a regular cleaning with a lot of brushing with a fresh bronze brush, and I do that after short stroking several patches down the bore. Years ago, I decided that I did not want to brush until I had gotten everything that I could out with patches. After bronze brushing, I typically run a couple of wet patches straight through so that I will not get a false reading from the particles that have abraded off of the bronze bristles. I call this stuff "brush dust". If you look closely at a new brush and at a well used one you will see quite a difference in the ends of the bristles. and the diameter. That material ends up in the bore after brushing.
Cool.
FWIW, that's the same approach I've been using. Before any abrasives, the bore is cleaned well with patches then bronze brush and the stuff left over after the bronze brush is cleaned out.
I've also found that if you rub a bronze brush [or bronze wool] against the clean outside of the barrel, then wipe off, the cloth has black on it.
 
As a basis I shoot fclass and have experienced quite a bit of hard carbon. With no access to the old or powerful carbon busters some have mentioned, I have tried most of the modern chemical elixirs. By far FreeAll has done the best job. A liberal spray into the barrel and brush, followed by at least overnight soak, and then 10-20 brass brush strokes will remove most carbon. I was very disappointed the first time I tried Thoro Clean as it barely cleaned much powder residue; FreeAll is excellent in this regard. So the overnight FreeAll soak followed by the Thoro Clean with the Iosso brush did a very good job with a less abrasive approach.
 
I've found some powders to be much worse concerning hard carbon deposits. Varget gives me really nice groups but I avoid it because the hard carbon shows up quick and it builds up fast, too.
 
As a basis I shoot fclass and have experienced quite a bit of hard carbon. With no access to the old or powerful carbon busters some have mentioned, I have tried most of the modern chemical elixirs. By far FreeAll has done the best job. A liberal spray into the barrel and brush, followed by at least overnight soak, and then 10-20 brass brush strokes will remove most carbon. I was very disappointed the first time I tried Thoro Clean as it barely cleaned much powder residue; FreeAll is excellent in this regard. So the overnight FreeAll soak followed by the Thoro Clean with the Iosso brush did a very good job with a less abrasive approach.
If you like FreeAll, see if you can find some Creepola by Mule Head Products. I've never used it on a barrel, but I keep it around to use as a last resort before I break out the torch for farm equipment repairs on a sea island. It tops any product I have ever used and it sells so quickly the parts store has to keep it in the back room and ration it.

I might get around to trying it myself.

Go to Creepola and scroll down. 1686538616918.png
 
If you like FreeAll, see if you can find some Creepola by Mule Head Products. I've never used it on a barrel, but I keep it around to use as a last resort before I break out the torch for farm equipment repairs on a sea island. It tops any product I have ever used and it sells so quickly the parts store has to keep it in the back room and ration it.

I might get around to trying it myself.

Go to Creepola and scroll down. View attachment 1448231
you may have the mule Kick right there...I didn't think Free All would do crap till I tried it..it melts carbon somehow
 
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