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Hard carbon deposits

  • Thread starter Thread starter Someoldguy
  • Start date Start date
I tried enough different solvents to conclude it was not likely that a solvent was going to be able to soften the hard carbon I was trying to remove.

I'm not going to argue that there isn't anything out there that will work, but I personally am not going to spend any more time looking for the right one.
 
I observe similar difficulties getting the carbon out of the 1st few inches of the barrel, specifically in the grooves. I try to use discipline with the more aggressive products like JB Paste and Iosso.

This is the problem area we're talking about, right? How much of a problem is it really to have some carbon left in the grooves? Is the side effects of the cure worse than the condition?
 
A friend started out and has done most of his 6PPC shooting with LT32 a fine powder but one which will slowly build hard carbon that is not removed by solvent and a bronze brush. I suggested that he use IOSSO as I described in a previous post every hundred rounds or so. The initial cleaning showed improvement in accuracy, and there have been no detrimental effects from subsequent use at that frequency. Back in the day when Tony Boyer was using what was known as T powder, one particular lot of surplus 8208 that has not been available for some time, he wrote that he did the nylon brush and IOSSO treatment between every match. I had some of that powder for a while and it was some of the worst that I have ever shot as far as forming hard to remove fouling. I do not believe that any of the currently available powders that are commonly used for the 6PPC would require that sort of frequency.
 
I observe similar difficulties getting the carbon out of the 1st few inches of the barrel, specifically in the grooves. I try to use discipline with the more aggressive products like JB Paste and Iosso.

This is the problem area we're talking about, right? How much of a problem is it really to have some carbon left in the grooves? Is the side effects of the cure worse than the condition?

In the particular barrel this thread was created about, the fouling was predominantly in the last 1/3 of the barrel.

As for the possibility of the cure being worse than the condition, only some time and targets will tell that tale.
 
I’m just wondering if anyone is using JB Bore Paste I have a 300 rum I am having a heck of time getting it clean
 
I’m just wondering if anyone is using JB Bore Paste I have a 300 rum I am having a heck of time getting it clean
Most use the JB for hard carbon and alternate between a copper and carbon solvent first the the JB for what is left.
What is you current cleaning regimen ?
 
Most use the JB for hard carbon and alternate between a copper and carbon solvent first the the JB for what is left.
What is you current cleaning regimen ?
I have been using wipe out patch out and bore tech copper with nylon brush use a over size brush to clean throat
 
I have had a devil of a time removing hard carbon deposits from a barrel. A .223 Savage model 12 26" barrel to be exact. Not a premium barrel by any means, but a good place to learn something new for me.

I have no idea where all these deposits came from originally. I bought this rifle used with an unknown round count. It has no fire cracking or obvious throat erosion, but it did have substantial copper and ultimately what I believe to be carbon fouling in it. The copper fouling was pretty straight-forward to deal with. 3 treatments with Bore Tech Copper Remover for 10 minutes each and the copper was gone. What I was left with was deposits primarily in the area between the lands and grooves that had a black or in some areas black nickel appearance. This was NOT the carbon ring in the throat area, but along the length of the barrel but predominately from 2/3rds the length of the barrel to the muzzle. I tried nearly every carbon removal solvent I could find and little to no impact resulted. Shooters Choice MC #7, Butch's Bore shine, Kano Kroil, Sea Foam, GM Top Engine Cleaner, none had any substantial impact even after 2, 12 hour soaks and aggressive bronze brushing. It took 4 applications of J-B Bore paste on a patch wrapped around a worn bronze brush to finally get this fouling stripped out. And if I did not have a bore scope, I can say without hesitation that the fouling would have not been detectable except, perhaps, on the target.

So I'd like to ask the membership here if they have ever encountered such fouling, and if anyone has any idea how to avoid it or what created it?

And before anyone asks, I do not know if it will impact performance on target with this particular barrel. I know it would group 3/4" @100 yds before. I've no idea what it might group now as I have not had an opportunity to shoot it. Just got the crud out a little while ago. But most all the competition shooters here like to keep their bores clean from what I can see, so whatever these deposits were would be bad juju, from what I've read.

Mostly curious if anyone on the forum has had a similar experience. Guys without a bore scope would never be able to see it.

Thanks in advance for any observations.
Affordable bore scopes are a recent development and I would guess that whoever owned your .223 before you did not have a clue about the hard carbon in the barrel. Given that he did not know he had the problem, it would be logical for him to have used the usual combination of one or more solvents, patches and probably bronze brushes, although there has been enough bullshit on the internet about bronze brushes and imagined damage that the brushes may have been nylon, which would have exacerbated the problem. What this adds up to is that the stuff that you labored so hard to remove was the result of hard carbon being deposited and piling up from the first round. Now that you have removed all of that, periodic use of a suitable abrasive cleaner should keep you ahead of the problem. For this kind of work I have had good luck with the judicious use or IOSSO paste, and more recently have switched to a different form of the same material, Thorroclean and Thorroflush. My routine for these is to do a thorough cleaning including bronze brusing and patching with solvent to get down to the hard stuff. At that point I use the Thorroclean and Thorroflush, or previously IOSSO paste. My methods of application have worked very well for me, and I am meticulous with my rod work and cleaning all of it out of the barrel, off of the rod and out of the rod guide. For the IOSSO, following a procedure that I read in an interview of Tony Boyer, I use a regular black nylon bore brush, not the hard kind but the softer variety.
I fill the bristles full with the IOSSO and short stroke it, starting in the throat and working foreward with short strokes, covering the area that the bores scope showed me had hard carbon. Do not use the IOSSO turning black as an indicator. It will turn in a clean barre. For the new user, I suggest doing some experimentation by cleaning some, patching it out, and then taking a look with your bore scope. Doing this you will soon arrive at how much work with the IOSSO is needed for a given powder, caliber, and round count. I take a just enough to get the job done approach. For the Thorroclean I do something slightly different than the instructions on the bottle. For 6mm, I wrap one of the same type nylon brushes with a 1 3/8" square patch and apply the Thorroclean from the bottle, evening it out with my finger tip. There is a trick to applying the Thorroflush to a patch. It wants to bead and run off. I have found that it does a superior job of removing the Thorroclean but it irritates my skin so I simply put on some closely fitting 6 mil. disposable mechanics gloves. The trick is to let the Thorroclean wick into the patch without any pressure on the bottle, and to quit before it starts running off. I prefer the new products to IOSSO but they both do an excellent job on hard carbon. I find that if you clean regularly and thoroughly that hard carbon is manageable without too much trouble.
 
Affordable bore scopes are a recent development and I would guess that whoever owned your .223 before you did not have a clue about the hard carbon in the barrel. Given that he did not know he had the problem, it would be logical for him to have used the usual combination of one or more solvents, patches and probably bronze brushes, although there has been enough bullshit on the internet about bronze brushes and imagined damage that the brushes may have been nylon, which would have exacerbated the problem. What this adds up to is that the stuff that you labored so hard to remove was the result of hard carbon being deposited and piling up from the first round. Now that you have removed all of that, periodic use of a suitable abrasive cleaner should keep you ahead of the problem. For this kind of work I have had good luck with the judicious use or IOSSO paste, and more recently have switched to a different form of the same material, Thorroclean and Thorroflush. My routine for these is to do a thorough cleaning including bronze brusing and patching with solvent to get down to the hard stuff. At that point I use the Thorroclean and Thorroflush, or previously IOSSO paste. My methods of application have worked very well for me, and I am meticulous with my rod work and cleaning all of it out of the barrel, off of the rod and out of the rod guide. For the IOSSO, following a procedure that I read in an interview of Tony Boyer, I use a regular black nylon bore brush, not the hard kind but the softer variety.
I fill the bristles full with the IOSSO and short stroke it, starting in the throat and working foreward with short strokes, covering the area that the bores scope showed me had hard carbon. Do not use the IOSSO turning black as an indicator. It will turn in a clean barre. For the new user, I suggest doing some experimentation by cleaning some, patching it out, and then taking a look with your bore scope. Doing this you will soon arrive at how much work with the IOSSO is needed for a given powder, caliber, and round count. I take a just enough to get the job done approach. For the Thorroclean I do something slightly different than the instructions on the bottle. For 6mm, I wrap one of the same type nylon brushes with a 1 3/8" square patch and apply the Thorroclean from the bottle, evening it out with my finger tip. There is a trick to applying the Thorroflush to a patch. It wants to bead and run off. I have found that it does a superior job of removing the Thorroclean but it irritates my skin so I simply put on some closely fitting 6 mil. disposable mechanics gloves. The trick is to let the Thorroclean wick into the patch without any pressure on the bottle, and to quit before it starts running off. I prefer the new products to IOSSO but they both do an excellent job on hard carbon. I find that if you clean regularly and thoroughly that hard carbon is manageable without too much trouble.
Thanks for the tip on the use of the soft brushes for the Iosso paste.
 
I would not use a patch + brush + JB or Iosso paste. I have read, on this site, that having such a soft base under your patch is bad. I cannot remember the specifics of why it is bad. It was mentioned by and 2nded by some of the well known smiths on this site.

Sorry I don't have all the detail, but earlier this year I was researching this and made a note that the patch/brush/JB method was a BIG NO.

Anyway, I use a patch + undersized jag + iosso when I need to do a really deep clean. It is just as easy to do as using a brush. So I just use the jag.

However, on the 2 rifles I have with excellent barrels, both have not needed this yet (400 rounds) A standard cleaning and then a couple 1-2 hour soaks with free all has been all I needed. For stubborn factory barrels and other rifles, I use the patch/jag/iosso with great success.
 
I would not use a patch + brush + JB or Iosso paste. I have read, on this site, that having such a soft base under your patch is bad. I cannot remember the specifics of why it is bad. It was mentioned by and 2nded by some of the well known smiths on this site.

Sorry I don't have all the detail, but earlier this year I was researching this and made a note that the patch/brush/JB method was a BIG NO.

Anyway, I use a patch + undersized jag + iosso when I need to do a really deep clean. It is just as easy to do as using a brush. So I just use the jag.

However, on the 2 rifles I have with excellent barrels, both have not needed this yet (400 rounds) A standard cleaning and then a couple 1-2 hour soaks with free all has been all I needed. For stubborn factory barrels and other rifles, I use the patch/jag/iosso with great success.
You're confirming the results via borescope?
 

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