Got brass troubles. Cause ? Video posted

[DLT]

That’s where I measure it.
Two out of your three dies are grossly over sizing. Heres an example of a quality 308 die that sizes beautifully and rounds chamber freely before and after ignition with indefinite case life.

I do use the rcbs die. After the first 100 rounds 1 round per each piece of brass I used the hornady dies. The other firings I used the rcbs dies they felt like they was working the brass the least. I used the hornady and small base reddings just to compare measurements I do not use them for sizing in this rifle. What would you do since I have learned it’s squeezing the shoulder too much ? In your pictures it looks like your shoulder is getting squeezed .003 is that corrrect ?

 

[DLT]

Hard to close bolt- fix by pushing back shoulder
Bolt click on bolt open Or hard to open - case just ahead of web expanded too big for chamber.

I do not have a hard to open bolt or a click from bolt popping case out of chamber. I Never have on this rifle. I have had a snug bolt close before getting dies adjusted.

 

[JFrank]

I would junk the top two and monitor the numbers moving forward with the third , if you still have concerns then get another die.

 

[LHSmith]

Then your ONLY problem is you need a custom die so you can get maximum case life.

 

[LHSmith]

Or screw the old barrel back on.

 

[DLT]

Then your ONLY problem is you need a custom die so you can get maximum case life.

Ok. We’re getting somewhere, if I go that route who makes custom dies. Whidden I’m sure and who else

 

[dantiff2]

I do use the rcbs die. After the first 100 rounds 1 round per each piece of brass I used the hornady dies. The other firings I used the rcbs dies they felt like they was working the brass the least. I used the hornady and small base reddings just to compare measurements I do not use them for sizing in this rifle. What would you do since I have learned it’s squeezing the shoulder too much ? In your pictures it looks like your shoulder is getting squeezed .003 is that corrrect ?

That's why we anneal... I make sure to cover the body/ shoulder junction along with the neck when I anneal. Your case neck is being worked back and forth way more than 3 thou, I can promise you that and it doesn't separate. Separation is due to thinning of the material, which is from the lateral force of stretching not from an open and close force. Measure a fired case mouth and then measure it after sizing without the expander ball in the die. You might be surprised how much brass can withstand.

 

[DLT]

Or screw the old barrel back on.

Nothing was wrong with it. I paid for a barrel and it shoots fairly well. I’m going to attempt to use it. If I play around and let the case shoulder stay blowed out but back my die off to just touch the shoulder and maybe squeeze it down .002 I probably will have a snug bolt close is there any down sides to that route if I go that way ? I have always heard and read .001-.002 is where ya want to be

 

[Webster]

View attachment 1423069View attachment 1423070

I had a case separate today which was a first. It’s starline brass bumped back 2-3 thou depending on what day it is, and this was the 4th firing. Many out of the 100 I started with shows a faint line outside on the body where it snapped. Anyways I anneal after every firing. 223 cases. I have seen ( not through personal experiences) the case head separate from over sizing and I have had split necks and I have had primers get blown out but not so much this. Helps. +++EDIT+++ I’ll also add I can not feel anything inside the cases where the line is forming with a paper clip. 94 out of the 100 has the obvious line around the outside of the case. 6 doesn’tView attachment 1423205

Look at the video link I posted on case head separation. Based on the video by an expert he states that the case shoulder gets pushed against the chamber shoulder by the primer, then the body expands tight against the chamber. The entire excess clearance is now between the bolt face and the case head. If you have excessive headspace the case 60,000 PSI wants to blow back towards the bolt. It has nowhere else to go. The location of the case that separates is not in the chamber. The entire case head in front of the .200” line is locked in place.

In any case no matter where the case separates it’s caused by the brass being stretched. It can only stretch if the is a larger than normal gap somewhere. It cannot stretch without a space to get pushed into. I cannot figure out why the case fails at the same mid length location. But the fact is it fails by localized stretching.

 

[JFrank]

Ok. We’re getting somewhere, if I go that route who makes custom dies. Whidden I’m sure and who else

@urbanrifleman
Bradley may have a Wilson FL in stock that sizes more favorably.
Annealing / taking a blow torch to your brass is only masking a dies in abilities to correctly size a case.

 

[DLT]

I’ll send him a message and see what he can tell me. I sure don’t want to pay for a set of dies and they work my brass just as much.

 

[JFrank]

I’ll send him a message and see what he can tell me. I sure don’t want to pay for a set of dies and they work my brass just as much.

Yes, consult Bradley first.
fyi -Wilson has honed a tiny off their dies for me at zero cost beyond shipping three fired cases, they also share sizing numbers.

Hope this helps, have a great day..

 

[DLT]

Yes, consult Bradley first.
fyi -Wilson has honed a tiny off their dies for me at zero cost beyond shipping three fired cases, they also share sizing numbers.

Hope this helps, have a great day..

Sweet. Maybe @urbanrifleman can help me. If not I’ll contact Wilson. Thank you much spj

 

[johnfred1965]

If you decide to trash any of those dies or barrels for that matter, I'll take them.

These guys on here have you running in 100 different directions. 99 of them are going to end up being wrong.

My 2 cents (and it might not be worth that) is a brass problem, which I think was mentioned on the first page. As Webster posted, with the video, brass separates when stretched lengthwise. Lets assume (yeah, I know, u + me) the brass is thin at the top half of the body, or overannealed or metalurgically different. When fired, this part of the brass is the first to expand and adher to the chamber wall, even before the rest of the body. This would allow stretching in the center of the case, rather at the head, where separations usually occur. Since it is streching at the thinner middle area of the case and not the thick case head area, it is separating earlier in the life of the case.

I doubt Starline will do anything for you after 4 or 5 firings on the brass, but I sure would send them some samples and put their feet to the fire that they have a problem they need to address.

Or, I could be wrong like the other 99...it wouldn't be the first time!LOL

 

[DShortt]

I believe the problem has been identified as the brass is being repeatedly stretched and compressed by the dies the OP has. I suspected this might be the case and that's why I suggested making a chamber cast to check the chamber dimensions, but I think the OP got there just the same.

Until the chamber and sizing die dimensions are identified it's premature to blame the brass.

And I could be one of the 99% also.

 

[JFrank]

Well junking a die may be strong language but for whatever reason there is a very poor die match to the chamber going on. I find it difficult to believe any die manufacture intended on sizing a shoulder diameter .008-.009 . I only posted on this because case separation happened to me and perhaps I could help, not to be a wise guy or know it all.

 

[243winxb]

Does the shell holder have the correct deck height?

 

[DShortt]

Does the shell holder have the correct deck height?

It appears that the problem lies in the difference in the chamber wall diameter and the diameter to which the die/dies are resizing the fired cases to. The cartridge base to datum line measuring is fine at .002" short. What appears to be happening is that every time the case is resized then fired, the case wall is getting expanded ~ .005" - .007". It is eventually failing where it is because that is where the case wall of the brass transition to the cartridge head begins. The brass starts to get thicker right there.

Or at least that's what it looks like to me.

 

[dantiff2]

It appears that the problem lies in the difference in the chamber wall diameter and the diameter to which the die/dies are resizing the fired cases to. The cartridge base to datum line measuring is fine at .002" short. What appears to be happening is that every time the case is resized then fired, the case wall is getting expanded ~ .005" - .007". It is eventually failing where it is because that is where the case wall of the brass transition to the cartridge head begins. The brass starts to get thicker right there.

Or at least that's what it looks like to me.

If that were the case, the neck of the brass would seperate on every reload ever made for factory guns where the case mouth opens up more than that every load cycle. Separation occurs when the length is off or over worked. The chamber stops the brass from stretching side to side. C'mon guys. Even if it sized it down 8 thou too small at the shoulder, that's only 4 thou a side. The case mouth can be worked 10 thou with a factory gun and off the shelf dies and still get more than four loads....
Dan

 

[DShortt]

If that were the case, the neck of the brass would seperate on every reload ever made for factory guns where the case mouth opens up more than that every load cycle. Separation occurs when the length is off or over worked. The chamber stops the brass from stretching side to side. C'mon guys. Even if it sized it down 8 thou too small at the shoulder, that's only 4 thou a side. The case mouth can be worked 10 thou with a factory gun and off the shelf dies and still get more than four loads....
Dan

Necks are annealed. Case bodies are not.

C'mon.