Got brass troubles. Cause ? Video posted
- Thread starter DLT
- Start date
A Wylde chamber most likely will run a bit bigger in the back end than your original Savage chamber. See post 8.
223 Wylde Chamber Question
I am having my prairie dog rifle rebarrelled. It is a Rem 700 223. I shoot mainly 55 gr vmax bullets. I have purchased a Krieger 8T barrel in light varmint taper. One gunsmith suggested a 223 Wylde chamber, I understand it has some larger dimensions than a SAMMI 223 chamber. Will I run into...
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DLT
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes ! Looks like the shoulder area for that reamer is .357. So if my die is taking it a good bit smaller than that I could see where that can be trouble. Unless others running a wylde chamber is getting around the same firings as I am I’d say that’s normal
Yes, while this is NOT ideal and is overworking the brass. There are multiple other posts within the thread where others are seeing the same exact failure point across a wide range of chambers. This alone would make me suspect to the metallurgical properties and not one specific reloading die fitment.
Dan
Not sure from your post what bullet you’re using with 23.2 gr of AR Comp. You mention shooting a 69 gr bullet but it's not clear what powder and charge. You state that it's a warm powder charge. Per the Alliant website with AR Comp the max charge with a 52 gr bullet is 25.3 gr, a 69 gr bullet 23.2 gr. You state your shooting a warm load with 23.2 Gr of powder Anyhow you were severely damaging cases and you continued shooting that load many times. Why didn’t you stop shooting. With one separated case you should have stopped shooting that load. You never tried shooting a lighter load so you damaged a large number of cases and possibly endangered your safety. You never tried backing off the charge you assumed you could solve the problem by measuring a lot of case dimensions.
DLT
Silver $$ Contributor
I didn’t have any signs of problems getting ready to occur. I honestly didn’t. No blown primers, No hard bolt lift, no click at the top of ramp, honestly only a few flattened primers. That’s with over 400 rounds. I did ask on here during my load development with very good pictures of all my cases in my box primers up if anybody seen any evidence of pressure. I didn’t nobody else did either. I’m not blaming it on guys on here but I feel like I know a good bit but I don’t have near the knowledge of a lot of people on the forum. It was a max load ran most of the time but not on all the cases all 4 firings. Alliant states 23.2 with a 24” barrel was 2969 fps. Mine is a 26” and was running 3030fps. I even went well over the 23.2gr as a starting charge when I first started. Zero visible signs of pressure even at that. I ran up and down with varget, arcomp. As well as 40gr, 50, 52, 53, 69, and 75 bullets. The only sign I had was the faint line halfway up the case and I didn’t think a thing about it until one separated. It was my first ever case separation in at least 25 years worth of shooting and loading off and on. Considering still what I have seen up to this point I doubt anyone else would have seen a sign of trouble. As a matter in fact once a case separated I did quit. I didn’t have one separate 200 rounds in and keep shooting.
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My fired brass from a Shilen .223 Wylde chamber measure 1.460 with the hornady tool
From one of my bartlein .223 barrels the fired brass measures 1.461
These are both for bolt guns. I am on 9 loads on my Lapua brass and have not had any issues with separations.
I have had several case head separations with LC brass in my gas guns. Those separations have all been much further down the case body compared to yours.
Also, for what it's worth, the distributor pack of Starline 223 brass are bulk packs of 12,000 cases / box. So ziploc bags of starline brass are likely from such a bulk box.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
The shoulder/body diameter is a reference measurement for SAAMI and is taken at a specified spot(distance) from the base(head). Taking a measurement at the shoulder/body(not the SAAMI reference) of unprocessed(cleaned) range brass from multiple AR .356-.358. My sized range brass .353. I have 223R,223 Wylde,556 chambered rifles. I size all the brass the same, no case head separation, multiple firings.
DLT
Silver $$ Contributor
My fired cases and yours is nearly identical. I can’t seem to figure out why a couple has posted their lengths with the hornady tool and is .010 longer than mine. Only thing I can figure is the inserts are longer than mine. We’re going to get it narrowed down to what the issue is. I’m really leaning towards a max load on brass that’s not quite up to snuff. It seems to be the only thing that halfway makes sense
It's likely being caused by less than perfect brass IMO. 4 firings isn't much for 223 brass.
I've recently found a few pieces of my Lapua 223 brass with faint "rings" around the cases in a similar position as the OPS.
When I sectioned them, this is what I found..
Interestingly, the "ring" on the outside wasn't always exactly opposite the thinned area on the inside. Offset maybe 1/8" to 1/4".
The cases were 18 times fired in a Tikka T3x Varmint, completely original. Not annealed, sized with a Lee Pacesetter FL die, and more recently with a Forster FL Benchrest series die.
They get cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner, which is why the inside is so clean. The axial scratches are from a dental pick, feeling for a thin spot before they were cut.
They developed donuts on the inside of the neck from the thicker shoulder material being pushed forward over their life. That was reamed out and they carried on.
Probably trimmed to length 4 to 5 times over 18 firings. The primer pockets aren't what I'd call tight any more, but they show no signs of leakage, definitely not loose by my standards.
Loads were moderate, mostly about 23 grains of Vihtavuori N140 under a 75 to 80 grain bullet. Call it 2750 fps out of a 24 inch barrel.
Using the Hornady comparator (.330 bushing) I am sizing them to 1.458"-1.459". They don't get bumped every time, only when the shoulder gets far enough ahead to touch the die. Cases that are fresh out of the rifle measure from 1.458" to 1.460". I know from experience that 1.461" is tight chambering.
Virgin Lapua brass measures about 1.456" with my tools.
They're not being overworked length-wise, and as has been said, accurately measuring a tapered wall case diameter is tricky business. The Tikka supposedly has a CIP or SAAMI spec chamber, how tight that is around the diameter is a good question.
My policy is that as soon as I see a ring starting around the body, they go in the scrap metal bucket. I don't need case separations, and 18 firings is pretty respectable.
The reason I say that the brass is "less than perfect" is that I had an 8x fired PMC case develop a slightly dark ring in the same area. When I flexed it in my fingers it broke apart. I doubt PMC is up to the same standard as Lapua or any premium brass maker, so it wasn't unexpected.
I don't have any personal experience with Starline brass, and I've stopped using PMC since I got the Lapua.
I do use Federal brass that I think is actually Lake City (range salvage) but can't say for sure. Both the Lapua and the Federal have been good.
I've recently found a few pieces of my Lapua 223 brass with faint "rings" around the cases in a similar position as the OPS.
When I sectioned them, this is what I found..
Interestingly, the "ring" on the outside wasn't always exactly opposite the thinned area on the inside. Offset maybe 1/8" to 1/4".
The cases were 18 times fired in a Tikka T3x Varmint, completely original. Not annealed, sized with a Lee Pacesetter FL die, and more recently with a Forster FL Benchrest series die.
They get cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner, which is why the inside is so clean. The axial scratches are from a dental pick, feeling for a thin spot before they were cut.
They developed donuts on the inside of the neck from the thicker shoulder material being pushed forward over their life. That was reamed out and they carried on.
Probably trimmed to length 4 to 5 times over 18 firings. The primer pockets aren't what I'd call tight any more, but they show no signs of leakage, definitely not loose by my standards.
Loads were moderate, mostly about 23 grains of Vihtavuori N140 under a 75 to 80 grain bullet. Call it 2750 fps out of a 24 inch barrel.
Using the Hornady comparator (.330 bushing) I am sizing them to 1.458"-1.459". They don't get bumped every time, only when the shoulder gets far enough ahead to touch the die. Cases that are fresh out of the rifle measure from 1.458" to 1.460". I know from experience that 1.461" is tight chambering.
Virgin Lapua brass measures about 1.456" with my tools.
They're not being overworked length-wise, and as has been said, accurately measuring a tapered wall case diameter is tricky business. The Tikka supposedly has a CIP or SAAMI spec chamber, how tight that is around the diameter is a good question.
My policy is that as soon as I see a ring starting around the body, they go in the scrap metal bucket. I don't need case separations, and 18 firings is pretty respectable.
The reason I say that the brass is "less than perfect" is that I had an 8x fired PMC case develop a slightly dark ring in the same area. When I flexed it in my fingers it broke apart. I doubt PMC is up to the same standard as Lapua or any premium brass maker, so it wasn't unexpected.
I don't have any personal experience with Starline brass, and I've stopped using PMC since I got the Lapua.
I do use Federal brass that I think is actually Lake City (range salvage) but can't say for sure. Both the Lapua and the Federal have been good.
I have a Colt field gauge. It measures 1.467 in my Hornady comparator.
Like I said in a previous post, my fired brass usually measures 1.457-1.461 depending on the chamber.
Between AR15s and bolt actions, I have several 223, 223W, and 5.56 chambers. If I want my 223 reloads to work in all of them, I size to 1.456 on my Hornady tool.
I have the same issue only I am getting 7-8 reloads before failure.
I know my chamber is tight and I have used two different dies on the starline brass and have 11 firings on lapua brass without issue.
New lapua brass measured at the same location as the separation with a digital blade micrometer.
.3609
New Starline brass measured at the same location as the separation with a digital blade micrometer.
.3610
Failed cases measured below separation.
.3636
So no way is the brass failing due to a loose chamber.
I know my chamber is tight and I have used two different dies on the starline brass and have 11 firings on lapua brass without issue.
New lapua brass measured at the same location as the separation with a digital blade micrometer.
.3609
New Starline brass measured at the same location as the separation with a digital blade micrometer.
.3610
Failed cases measured below separation.
.3636
So no way is the brass failing due to a loose chamber.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
For calibers you are dedicated to, it is good to own at least the Go-Gage.
With the gage and some tape on the base, you can get a pretty good measure of your rifle's headspace dimension to within the thickness of the tape steps.
Gages are more rigid than brass cases, so you get a pretty good answer without necessarily stripping the bolt, but you can if you want to.
Then, you can use that gage w/tape to reference your Hornady tools to see how virgin or cycled brass compares and to get a much clearer picture of how much you are really bumping.
This doesn't answer all the questions in this thread, but it takes the lengths of the shoulder bump off the table. That still leaves us with diameters and the brass, but at least the bump question is eliminated.
I was surprised that more folks who reload don't own the Go-Gage for their favorite cartridges. They are certainly used by gunsmiths, but have as many uses for reloaders as they do for setting up chambers.
Now for the question of what is causing the OP's issues... If the shoulder bump is taken off the table, and there isn't a huge difference between the chamber diameters and the sizing die, then it would be time to do a fine survey of the brass hardness values, with an emphasis right near the break.
A few samples of virgin, a few samples of brass with two cycles, and a few samples of ones that are either broken or ready to break, and we would have the answers. Here is an example of the values for "normal" mil-spec 556 brass hardness values.
With the gage and some tape on the base, you can get a pretty good measure of your rifle's headspace dimension to within the thickness of the tape steps.
Gages are more rigid than brass cases, so you get a pretty good answer without necessarily stripping the bolt, but you can if you want to.
Then, you can use that gage w/tape to reference your Hornady tools to see how virgin or cycled brass compares and to get a much clearer picture of how much you are really bumping.
This doesn't answer all the questions in this thread, but it takes the lengths of the shoulder bump off the table. That still leaves us with diameters and the brass, but at least the bump question is eliminated.
I was surprised that more folks who reload don't own the Go-Gage for their favorite cartridges. They are certainly used by gunsmiths, but have as many uses for reloaders as they do for setting up chambers.
Now for the question of what is causing the OP's issues... If the shoulder bump is taken off the table, and there isn't a huge difference between the chamber diameters and the sizing die, then it would be time to do a fine survey of the brass hardness values, with an emphasis right near the break.
A few samples of virgin, a few samples of brass with two cycles, and a few samples of ones that are either broken or ready to break, and we would have the answers. Here is an example of the values for "normal" mil-spec 556 brass hardness values.
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