Induction brass annealer redux

[hambone1971]

Problems abound! I've been fighting one thing after another on this project and have ironed out most issues. However, there is one I can't seem to figure out. So I'm calling on the collective knowledge and experience for a possible solution.

The coils both factory and 1/8" diameter GinaErik specified coil heat up and draw almost 30Amps without any metal in the middle. No coils are touching. I've had 2 bad power supplies and 1 bad induction board during my build and this is the last issue to resolve.

All help and ideas are appreciated folks.
Thanks in advance

Some boards have hot mounting pads or hot traces very close to the mount holes.
Your not shorting something hot to chassis or box ground at the mounts?
Just wondering. good luck.. HB

 

[NC Tinkerer]

NC Tinkerer

My build is so old I can’t remember the details but I think Fluxeon told me how many turns the coil should be. The GinaErik design may dictate something else but they really only needs to envelop the neck, shoulder and a little of the body. I also made the ID as small as practical for better coupling. I made different coils for different cases. A friend made these mandrels for me. I was concerned about the possibility of flattening of the tubing. The odd looking one on top is for the other bends.
View attachment 1196388

Those mandrels are really nice. I just used PVC pipe and dowel rods. I made several coils from solid #4 wire at different IDs and number of turns, then tested each one for it's resonant frequency. There are many possibilities that will produce the equivalent coil. There is a fairly simple formula that will tell you how a coil will perform based on its diameter, height and number of turns. The formula almost exactly predicted how the coils actually performed. Once I had the coil size I wanted, I made one from copper tubing. I made a 9.75 turn coil at 1.050 ID because it did not result in a coil that would easily overdrive the induction board. Smaller coils require more turns to get the same reluctance and I found them to be more touchy when it comes to the cartridge case positioning. I usually shoot 30 caliber and most of those cases are similar in size. I'm hoping to be able to set the case necks in the coil center and adjust the timing for each caliber. If I have to keep records on different case manufacturers I can, but hoping it won't be that sensitive.

 

[NC Tinkerer]

Hey, does anyone know a common solvent to clean off the Tempilaq after testing? I have a dozen or more solvents in my shop and wondered if anyone had already figured it out before I started asphyxiating myself.

 

[itchyTF]

I tried 10 or 12 ga solid but it got too hot. The water cooled 1/8” tubing stays cool.

If you can’t find a good solvent and you’re using scrap cases for parameter settings you could use a wire wheel.

 

[kiwijohn]

Methylated spirits seems to dissolve most of the residue ( on a rag ) you still have that bit where the paint etched into the brass and there is a colour change.

 

[NC Tinkerer]

Methylated spirits seems to dissolve most of the residue ( on a rag ) you still have that bit where the paint etched into the brass and there is a colour change.

I'm using some scrap cases, but some not. That discoloration is what I was trying to get off. It may be permanent or will go away after the next cleaning. We'll see.

I ran my first batch of 85 cases today. 7.5x55 Swiss. It took 5.75 secs to get the 750 deg tempilaq to turn color just past the shoulder. The current to the inductor board reached about 11.5 amps just as the time ended. I'm setup for a .5 sec delay after the heat followed by .3 seconds to drop the case and 3 seconds to reload. I ran all of the cases as quick as it would take them. The coil got only slightly warm as the water pump/radiator was keeping it cool. This is so much better than the torch I've been using for years.

 

[Brucey Boy]

Hey, does anyone know a common solvent to clean off the Tempilaq after testing? I have a dozen or more solvents in my shop and wondered if anyone had already figured it out before I started asphyxiating myself.

Yes. Just let your Tempilaq-ed case soak in water for a minute or so and then literally wipe it away.

 

[SGK]

Brasso

 

[NC Tinkerer]

Yes. Just let your Tempilaq-ed case soak in water for a minute or so and then literally wipe it away.

Brasso

Thanks guys for the followup on cleaning off the tempilaq.
I didn't figure on plain old water since they sell a special solvent.
I had noticed I could wipe off the unheated tempilaq but the cooked on stuff didn't come off all the way.
I'm only using a few cases to check the times so I'll just toss them in a cup of water while I anneal the rest.

 

[Sdvldog1371]

It would be amazing bad luck to have all of those major items faulty. Perhaps you have not cabled things up 100% correctly and have accidentally shorted them out?

Are you using a metal case / cabinet for your annealer? If so make sure that you have plenty of clearance around the copper tubes of the coil throughout its entire length. It is also wise, with a metal case to have a rubber grommet around to cutout to insulate the case from the coil. If the coil is touching or even close to any metal it will spike the power. Let that continue for a second or two seconds and you will have damaged components.

Go back through your installation cabling in minute detail to make sure that you have done everything precisely in accordance with the different manufacturers requirements. Physically trace every piece of wire and check for shorts.

Disconnect all of the equipment, and then reconnect it one item at a time and energise. This will show which item is causing the problem when the power suddenly spikes after that new item is connected and energised.

Hope something in this helps.

Good luck.

Brucey, I am known for having incredibly bad luck, Lol. I had 3 power supplies total. The first didn't work from the beginning, I powered everything up and before even putting a load on it I could smell it was hot. I checked it for voltage and it wasn't even putting out 9v, I got a replacement sent and it came all banged up and rattley and put out no voltage. The 3rd came a little banged up but worked. The first induction board worked twice and then it just stopped for whatever reason. The 3rd and successive times I fired up the machine the light on the power source would go out. I unhooked the induction wiring and viola...voltage and a light. So I got a new board, it fired right up but the coil got really hot and it was drawing almost 30 amps with nothing in the coil.

I was using computer tower that I gutted for an enclosure. And it was just an open air setup because I was still in the process of debugging. The coil was close too 4 inches from any metal and the coil was insulated with fiberglass tubing. I went through several times and checked all the wiring and I couldn't find anything.

I sent the replacement power and new board back for refunds. I broke down and bought an Annie annealer with their water cooled coil option so that I can ay least utilize some of the parts for this build. I'm too low on brass to keep farting around with this. Maybe at a later date I can revisit it.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, help and ideas. I'd totally recommend this project for people less cursed than me.

 

[Andrew1101]

Brucey, I am known for having incredibly bad luck, Lol. I had 3 power supplies total. The first didn't work from the beginning, I powered everything up and before even putting a load on it I could smell it was hot. I checked it for voltage and it wasn't even putting out 9v, I got a replacement sent and it came all banged up and rattley and put out no voltage. The 3rd came a little banged up but worked. The first induction board worked twice and then it just stopped for whatever reason. The 3rd and successive times I fired up the machine the light on the power source would go out. I unhooked the induction wiring and viola...voltage and a light. So I got a new board, it fired right up but the coil got really hot and it was drawing almost 30 amps with nothing in the coil.

I was using computer tower that I gutted for an enclosure. And it was just an open air setup because I was still in the process of debugging. The coil was close too 4 inches from any metal and the coil was insulated with fiberglass tubing. I went through several times and checked all the wiring and I couldn't find anything.

I sent the replacement power and new board back for refunds. I broke down and bought an Annie annealer with their water cooled coil option so that I can ay least utilize some of the parts for this build. I'm too low on brass to keep farting around with this. Maybe at a later date I can revisit it.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, help and ideas. I'd totally recommend this project for people less cursed than me.

My thoughts are that the board will draw current that will be influenced by how much metallic mass is connected to its terminals, as well as the shape/turns of the coil. Longer tubing will cause higher current, and the heavier brass fittings for your tubing connection will also increase current and my guess is those brass fittings are the culprit. If you wanted to check that theory make up a new coil not connected to the piping and give it 1 cycle to check current levels without the brass fittings.

 

[Sdvldog1371]

My thoughts are that the board will draw current that will be influenced by how much metallic mass is connected to its terminals, as well as the shape/turns of the coil. Longer tubing will cause higher current, and the heavier brass fittings for your tubing connection will also increase current and my guess is those brass fittings are the culprit. If you wanted to check that theory make up a new coil not connected to the piping and give it 1 cycle to check current levels without the brass fittings.

My coil is 7 turns total, 6 full and 2 half turns around a 3d printed mandrel with an interior dimension of 1.125". The coil is .125" OD copper tubing that I then inserted into 2 lengths of the original supplied coil tubing and soldered as per the directions. On the very ends where it connects to the water pump clear vinyl tubing I took 2 .750" lengths of 5/16 copper tubing and drilled a piece of .500" thick aluminum I had laying around to .250 and then reamed it with a tapered reamer and used an arbor press to swage the 2 small pieces into tapered nipples which were soldered on to the factory supplied pieces.
Between the 1/8" 6mm and 5/16" tubing I used no more than what was called for. No heavy brass fittings of any kind. I tried the working board with my small coil and the large one that came with it and it drew 2 amps more with the supplied coil which was much larger than my coil. All the testing of the new board was done on a wood board, Lol. Saving myself the work of assembling something I would have had to disassemble later.

Good thought process though. I like where your mind was at, however, I have returned that board and the power supply.

I ordered an Annie Annealer by fluxeon. I figure with all of the stuff I have I should be able to utilize the cooling parts for the water cooled coil I ordered and I should be able to maybe even use some other parts to automate it. The annie comes with a foot pedal activation option and it uses a 3.5mm jack of which I have a few. I figure I can use an arduino with touch screen to throw a relay to act as a foot pedal. The time will still have to be set manually, but I can still have an auto height adjusting shelf, saved anneal times, a trap door, hopper feeder and an optical sensor that sets the whole thing in motion.

 

[Slamfire361]

Apologies if I missed this - but has there been an updated parts list / build posted anywhere? The edit date on Gina's first post seems from a few years ago but this thread is of course quite active since then.

 

[NC Tinkerer]

Apologies if I missed this - but has there been an updated parts list / build posted anywhere? The edit date on Gina's first post seems from a few years ago but this thread is of course quite active since then.

I built mine within the past month. I strayed from the original design slightly using a larger power supply and driving the solenoid on 48V. I bought everything on Amazon except the timer which was taking too long so I ordered it from NewEgg, the copper tubing which I bought at O'Reilly Auto Parts, and the 5/16" ID hose which I bought at Lowes. I used a 12VDC converter to get 12V from 48V. The cooling fans I already had. Attached is a list of what I used. I do a lot of tinkering around so I didn't mind buying more than I need of some things.

 

[dulcimer]

Apologies if I missed this - but has there been an updated parts list / build posted anywhere? The edit date on Gina's first post seems from a few years ago but this thread is of course quite active since then.

Gina's first post is a solid base to work off of, and reading through the entirety of the thread is well worth it.

Here's an index of builds that have been posted on this thread so far. Hopefully this can be of use to you? It's not an "official" parts lists, but may point you to ideas and people who have posted theirs:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ulVdFI5fYtFFsjbxbNePhGnIfA_R6Sg8M17d3Yn92bI/edit?usp=sharing
As always, if anyone wants something added into the index for reference, make a post or PM me! This list isn't exhaustive in terms of concepts covered and the contributions of many members.
I've attached the parts list for my build below; it did stray slightly from the original, but that's part of the fun. Edit: The formatting came out wonky and cut off a few links, but you'll get the gist of it.

 

[Slamfire361]

Thank you both for posting your own build lists and the index. I'm working through the thread but its taking a bit

 

[NC Tinkerer]

Thank you both for posting your own build lists and the index. I'm working through the thread but its taking a bit

There is some information on the Snipers Hide forum as well. One guy there started out bare bones and low power. No cooling, no cabinet, no solenoids, simple timer, etc. He has a short parts list posted. I originally thought about going that route but reconsidered and added a few bells and whistles like the examples on this forum.

 

[Slamfire361]

There is some information on the Snipers Hide forum as well. One guy there started out bare bones and low power. No cooling, no cabinet, no solenoids, simple timer, etc. He has a short parts list posted. I originally thought about going that route but reconsidered and added a few bells and whistles like the examples on this forum.

Hah, that is where I started actually - I didn't realize until I found this thread the REAL knowledge and major discussion was here

 

[Slamfire361]

I saw some discussion back around page 85, but was there a consensus determined around the right temperature range in the 750°-1000°F range?

I know the 750 Tempilaq is generally the most popular, but there was decent discussion on the Hide thread regarding annealing benefits not really happening until closer to the 1000° mark. Similar to here, the discussion was regarding how the AMP data shows going to those temps rather than 750.

 

[David101]

I saw some discussion back around page 85, but was there a consensus determined around the right temperature range in the 750°-1000°F range?

I know the 750 Tempilaq is generally the most popular, but there was decent discussion on the Hide thread regarding annealing benefits not really happening until closer to the 1000° mark. Similar to here, the discussion was regarding how the AMP data shows going to those temps rather than 750.

I am pretty sure you will find the neck starts melting well before 1000 deg you can certainly melt the neck with this induction unit at least on smaller brass such as 223 and even 308 size not sure of the temp but not a lot more in time is required, so be careful or you will be chucking brass in the bin.