Induction brass annealer redux
- Thread starter Gina1
- Start date
Look at page 99
I'm using machine learning, training a model using current measurements during the 1st second and a known "good" resulting time. I have no idea if the time I select as target/result for a series of data is perfect, can't claim that, but it's the time I would use and find appropriate. The model is quite good already for non-destructive case analysis and is scaringly accurate predicting times for unknown cases (cases it has not been trained on - like different calibers and head stams).
Rune Viem on Instagram: "Induction Annealer plus machine learning... Witch craft without case sacrifice #inductionannealingbrass #reloadingtherapy #reloadingbenchtherapy #brassprep #annealingbrass #precisionhandloading #precisionreloading #reloading
51 likes, 2 comments - standardelg on October 19, 2020: "Induction Annealer plus machine learning... Witch craft without case sacrifice #inductionannealingbrass #reloadingtherapy #reloadingbenchtherapy #brassprep #annealingbrass #precisionhandloading #precisionreloading #reloading...
www.instagram.com
And I figured I could make it even more useful, by skipping the separate analysis step - and build it into the anneal cycle, which means the time (and other settings e.g. pulses are adjusted on the fly during the first second) and each and every case gets a unique treatment.
Rune Viem on Instagram: "3 cases, 3 different head stamps. Realtime AI prediction of anneal settings. Just dropping the cases in and letting the machine figure it out. No cases were harmed during the making of this film. #brassprep #annealingbrass #r
61 likes, 5 comments - standardelg on October 24, 2020: "3 cases, 3 different head stamps. Realtime AI prediction of anneal settings. Just dropping the cases in and letting the machine figure it out. No cases were harmed during the making of this film. #brassprep #annealingbrass #reloading...
www.instagram.com
See this link #114 The theory is that Aztec monitors the time until current drops and AMP have devised a formula for backing off from this point and that this has been based on metallurgical testing. So you can (somewhat) readily monitor current for the 'time to destruction' point but still need a process for determining when to stop prior to that point.
You can build it, it's just that it would take coaching for individual steps. I will try to document steps when i make one. I just don't know when I am going to get it started.This thing is fucking awesome !
I'm too stupid to build anything like this. I only wish.
Maybe I can get my brother to do it
Thank you for taking the time to share this.
I'm sure if you had an exact supply list you could make it work, and having someone who knows a bit of how to make systems work look it over beforehand is never a bad idea.
Hi, first post in this forum. I am Bob Fleming, retired electronic technician, industrial control technician, licensed electrician. Currently an amateur extra class ham radio operator and of course I am a competitive shooter. I have had more success in pistol competitions than rifle but I have been a serious rifleman since early childhood.
Looks like a great project. Took me a couple of weeks to read the entire thread, lots of high quality information and ideas that invoke much thought.
One of the shortfalls appears to be the lack of adaptability for neck thickness. I have not yet built my version of the annealer so I depend on the writings of the forum members:
Thinner necks require less time to reach the target temperature.
Thinner necks load the system up with less current draw from the power supply.
To use the .308 case as a generic example what is the difference in annealing time expected between thin and thicker necks?
Designing a simple circuit that shortens the time when the current is lower and/or lengthens the time when the current is higher should not be difficult.
Looks like a great project. Took me a couple of weeks to read the entire thread, lots of high quality information and ideas that invoke much thought.
One of the shortfalls appears to be the lack of adaptability for neck thickness. I have not yet built my version of the annealer so I depend on the writings of the forum members:
Thinner necks require less time to reach the target temperature.
Thinner necks load the system up with less current draw from the power supply.
To use the .308 case as a generic example what is the difference in annealing time expected between thin and thicker necks?
Designing a simple circuit that shortens the time when the current is lower and/or lengthens the time when the current is higher should not be difficult.
Hi. Welcome. I suspect you will find the 'system' isn't so precise. Current draw depends on idle consumption plus the load of the case in the coil, but the latter isn't just the neck. I think most of us have found that focusing on the shoulder/wall junction - the thickest part of the case we need heated - means the neck is 'well done'. Case placement in the work coil influences this a lot. For example, with my coil, I place a 308 case such that the case mouth is just protruding from the top of work coil.
As has been discussed, for any given coil/case type/placement position you could monitor the current rise and observe the point at which it collapses when the case is heated too far. Backing off from there some amount and you should be good. Or guess with the use of Tempilaq. Both are guesses without an analysis of the brass to confirm your formula.
As has been discussed, for any given coil/case type/placement position you could monitor the current rise and observe the point at which it collapses when the case is heated too far. Backing off from there some amount and you should be good. Or guess with the use of Tempilaq. Both are guesses without an analysis of the brass to confirm your formula.
In a perfect world 
the cases all weigh close to the same and all necks are very close to the same thickness but I dream of running all brands, mixed military and range pickups in the same random batch. The only thing in common would be the designation of .308/7.62 for this example. Perhaps that is a poor idea and I need to dedicate the annealer to my batches of match prepped brass and sorted batches of range brass. The idea of weighing and measuring the neck of every piece of range brass is not appealing.
I have many 5 gallon buckets of range pick-up brass that might benefit from annealing.
Idle current and probably a couple other issues are why I asked about the difference in the length of times needed between thicker and thinner.
I discovered that the tab button, I guess that is what happened, can cause an unfinished post to upload.
Would also need to know what difference in current we might expect between thick and thin. My idea will not clearly detect a different alloy as the difference in the conduction of the different alloys is probably burried in the noise.
Bob in Texas
the cases all weigh close to the same and all necks are very close to the same thickness but I dream of running all brands, mixed military and range pickups in the same random batch. The only thing in common would be the designation of .308/7.62 for this example. Perhaps that is a poor idea and I need to dedicate the annealer to my batches of match prepped brass and sorted batches of range brass. The idea of weighing and measuring the neck of every piece of range brass is not appealing.I have many 5 gallon buckets of range pick-up brass that might benefit from annealing.
Idle current and probably a couple other issues are why I asked about the difference in the length of times needed between thicker and thinner.
I discovered that the tab button, I guess that is what happened, can cause an unfinished post to upload.
Would also need to know what difference in current we might expect between thick and thin. My idea will not clearly detect a different alloy as the difference in the conduction of the different alloys is probably burried in the noise.
Bob in Texas
Don’t forget that (a) current increases linearly as the brass heats (until the current collapses) and (b) your view of current is only as good as your measurement device/ammeter. Of course you might determine by trial and error that your neck turned 308 brass should take a little less time than your no-turned 308 brass (but more likely you should place the first slightly higher in the coil than the second) but I would not expect high degrees of precision. A particularly large difference in shoulder/wall junction case thickness and neck thickness just, in my view, makes it harder to not fry the necks while trying to anneal the shoulder. My first adjustment would be to place them higher. An air gapped coil would likely offer much more precision given the ferrite focuses the current in the gap.
Hi all...
Hollywood spent a lot of time and work finding just the right size coil. I'm sure others have worked on different variations of the coil. Just off the top of my head, I was thinking if you wound a coil close to Hollywood's dimensions, but left the top 2 turns slightly wider, this might produce less heat in the neck, while giving full heat to the shoulder and case....
gina
just a thought.
Hollywood spent a lot of time and work finding just the right size coil. I'm sure others have worked on different variations of the coil. Just off the top of my head, I was thinking if you wound a coil close to Hollywood's dimensions, but left the top 2 turns slightly wider, this might produce less heat in the neck, while giving full heat to the shoulder and case....
gina
just a thought.
Fancy features can wait but I would recommend a lot of thought and patience before jumping into a build. Unless you are prepared to build a few different iterations. Of critical importance from a design perspective is alignment of the shelf trap door and the work coil - and then how each of those is going to be supported (with one or other needing to be adjustable). If you decide to fundamentally change the work coil to a gapped ferrite design it will change a lot of your design. So don't rush if you have these sorts of questions which indicate a focus on getting the best unit you can.
My retirement budget will dictate much of the build. Already have several industrial power supplies, good ventilated enclosure, a box of 1/8" copper tubing, 3 phase contractor to control the DC power and I am pretty sure I have some timers around here somewhere that fit on the contractor and can provide an adjustable off delay. The trap door will be manual until I make the decisions about moving forward with the adaptive timer.
My adaptive timer circuit that senses current will be another project all it's own. Due to my radio hobby I have several large ferrite toroidal cores to play with and I think some of the ZVS and coil heating issues will be greatly reduced with a lower operating frequency. I realize that 100Khz is more efficient for heating brass but 50Khz might be a lot more efficient at producing the power in the coil. All that heat in the ZVS and coil is wasted energy.
BUT!!!
First things first and get off the torch habit with the simplest build I can make with a proven design.
My adaptive timer circuit that senses current will be another project all it's own. Due to my radio hobby I have several large ferrite toroidal cores to play with and I think some of the ZVS and coil heating issues will be greatly reduced with a lower operating frequency. I realize that 100Khz is more efficient for heating brass but 50Khz might be a lot more efficient at producing the power in the coil. All that heat in the ZVS and coil is wasted energy.
BUT!!!
First things first and get off the torch habit with the simplest build I can make with a proven design.
Hi, would you be able to share the STL files? Thanks!
the trap door
I just found this forum post. I have started looking at making my own version. Are there any write ups with the current iteration of the GinaErik build?
Any advise, Thanks
Any advise, Thanks
Yeah, that is a lot of info to skim!!!!
Here is an index someone made. I don't recall who did the index but they are smart and a great Rifleman!!!
docs.google.com
One parts list that I noted is on page 78. for reference this is page 109 on my screen.
GINAERICK_Index
This is an ongoing index of builds and concepts that were posted on the “Induction brass annealer redux” thread by Gina1. Please suggest any additions on the thread or PM to member “dulcimer”! Thank you! SGK Shelf: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/p...
One parts list that I noted is on page 78. for reference this is page 109 on my screen.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.