Berger 7mm 190gr long range hybrid

[davidjoe]

I pointed that out because anyone running the 190s will likely already be dealing with a loss of velocity relative to the 180 or 184 Hybrids due to the increased bullet weight. That is just simple physics and the inherent pressure limitations of a given cartridge. In light of that fact, minor load velocity variance in the range of +/- 50 fps or less isn't going to have much of an effect on wind deflection for a given BC bullet. Assuming equal precision, using a bullet with higher BC will generally provide more gain in terms of wind deflection than is possible by increasing velocity.

This got me thinking about a well-trodden subject from a different angle than I have before. If you have two different cartridges (or even let’s say different bullets of the same caliber), is the rifle (or bullet) that requires less come up to get to a 1,000 yards from 100, always (necessarily, because of what BC means) going to shoot “inside” the other with respect to wind drift?

If so, that is an important connection of dots I haven’t made before that makes direct comparison between many choices pretty clear without the need to experiment in the wind, and if not, then the exceptions would be interesting, since at least generally it seems to hold true.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Both muzzle velocity and BC contribute to bullet drop. The smallest drop does not necessarily mean the least wind deflection. Light, fast moving bullets tend to have pretty flat trajectories as compared to heavy slower bullets. However, when loaded to equal pressure, the heavier, higher BC bullet will usually exhibit less wind deflection, even though it may require more elevation at some distance. An example of this is a comparison of two F-TR loads at 1000 yd:

A) .223 Rem - 90 VLDs @2850 fps > 6.6 MOA windage, 28.0 MOA drop, pointed G7 BC ~0.290

B) .308 Win - 200.20Xs @ 2650 fps > 6.0 MOA windage, 30.4 MOA drop, pointed G7 BC ~0.340

A similar comparison with two bullets of the same caliber might be something like a .30 cal 155 bullet versus the 200.20X bullet, which would give very close to the same results listed above. One of the few cases I've ever actually encountered where a lighter, lower BC bullet could actually be driven fast enough at safe operating pressure to overcome the BC deficit and actually outperform the next higher weight class of bullets is Berger's 168 Hybrid as compared to the 185 Juggernaut. The 168 Hybrid has a very high BC for its weight and is light enough that you can push them sufficiently fast from a 30" barrel to shoot slightly inside a typical 185 Juggernaut load. It works in that case because the BC of the 168 Hybrid is only slightly behind the 185 Juggernaut. In cases where the heavier bullet has a noticeably higher BC, you generally can't push the lighter bullet fast enough at safe operating pressure to overcome the BC deficit.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

Did you test with a magnum?
I would like to see your results with a larger round count or perhaps a 20 shot string.
If these 190’s turn out to be accurate a magnum is the way to go.

Yes i have tested 500 rounds now in a 7mm SAUM AI. Low node 2775 high node 2911. All with H4831SC-57.5 low high H4831SC 58.8 grns. An yes they shoot well. I have another friend shooting them in a strait saum @ low node. His is shooting quite well. Shooting inaccurately at super fast speed never seems to work well for long strings of fire.
My plan is to run them @2911fps. Its a good speed with a very high bc bullet. Hope this helps out. Also @. 240 .250 Fb seems about perfect for these bullets.

 

[davidjoe]

Thanks Ned, I’ve been holding to that assumption that a heavy 7 could shoot inside a lighter one that struck 1 or maybe even 2 moa higher, which I believed I observed reliably. I was second guessing whether my heavier bullets would indeed impact inside at 1000, given that with more come up, that implies both a longer arc and longer flight time for the heavy 7s to be affected by the wind.

 

[No i deer]

My 1 in 8.25 barrel shoots the same load flatter at 1000yds than my 1 in 9 barrel lol

 

[No i deer]

As I've got myself an inside neck reamer to eliminate any donuts if they were forming I could run the 190's at a slightly slower node and in theory they should still shoot inside the 184s.
What's speeds were the 195gr eol blowing up on you Dave...??
What speeds could you run them in your 7mm saum...?

 

[barefooter56]

Any testing of these through a Saum? I lost record 19 at Berger after 12 sighters with 195’s, very last string. My beloved 195’s. Primer looked just like others - as opposed to showing lower pressure from undercharge. 36 inch barrel. Supposition is jacket delamination.

Joe,
You most likely had the bullet come apart on the way to the target. The 195 is a HUNTING bullet. So it will have a slightly thinner jacket that one of our TARGET BULLETS will. The 36 inch barrel doesn't help either because it adds a lot more heat and friction to the bullet. You may want to drop to a 28 inch barrel. Also make sure you clean any carbon or copper build ups that are sitting in the angle where the lands meet the groove portion of the barrel. AND check for fire checking in the throat. If you want to stay with the 7mm 195 bullet . You will have to do everything you can to take the heat and friction off the bullet. Or go to the 7mm 190 LRHT bullet. Hope this helps.

 

[davidjoe]

^ and 2^ : Agree, having fired a great many 195’s since they were first delivered, I am certain that the 12 sighters and very fast pace firing caused that blowup. Very avoidable, but in actuality, also possible with regular match bullets as well if pushed too hard. (I’ll mention as I have before that no .284 of any length barrel or load of mine has ever blown up any bullet, while in a Saum I have discovered the limit of every bullet I’ve used, (yes pure match bullets, too) which is information I’d rather know, and adjust from, than not know.)

The other individual there losing two 195 bullets, used a more conventional length barrel I’m sure but nevertheless I agree completely that heat increases with barrel length.

I had chronographed (page 4) at home the last two 195’s in the box that lost one had an MV of 2,976 in that same rifle. That’s approximately 125 FPS faster with the same bullet than my .284’s.

 

[No i deer]

Can you try too blow up some 7mm 180gr ELDM's up in your 284 for me..
A club mate has shot about 1000 of them through his 284 at around 2900fps without any blowups and there the same lot number as mine..!!
60fps faster in my saum saw 3 not make the target.
I put anotger 30 of the 180gr ELDM's through my 26 inch barrel in a snapshooting match last Sunday at they all made it to the target

 

[davidjoe]

Can you try too blow up some 7mm 180gr ELDM's up in your 284 for me..
A club mate has shot about 1000 of them through his 284 at around 2900fps without any blowups and there the same lot number as mine..!!
60fps faster in my saum saw 3 not make the target.
I put anotger 30 of the 180gr ELDM's through my 26 inch barrel in a snapshooting match last Sunday at they all made it to the target

Those bullets are very accurate. I tested several 180 grain 7’s against each other in calm and wind several years back, and I honestly thought at 600 they were not beaten in my rifles.

However, at 1,000 I did not find their groups to top Lapua or Berger. I felt they had higher BC than Lapua in wind, (about even with Berger) but grouped larger, and that in a typical condition 1,000 yard match I would score highest with Berger, then Lapua, then Hornady.

I also found that ELDM’s and rsaums did not mix.

 

[No i deer]

Thanks Dave..
I'd say that was a fair opinion....
From me searching and asking the questions about them blowing up some had them blow at 2800fps in there 284s but there wasn't many saying it..
Some were running them at nearly 3200fps without a failure..
They don't like string shooting though..
I will use use the ones I have left in my 284 rather than sell them as they'd last me quite a while and there paid for...
Don't bother with the 195s in the saum either then..??

 

[Willow]

Thanks Dave..
I'd say that was a fair opinion....
From me searching and asking the questions about them blowing up some had them blow at 2800fps in there 284s but there wasn't many saying it..
Some were running them at nearly 3200fps without a failure..
They don't like string shooting though..
I will use use the ones I have left in my 284 rather than sell them as they'd last me quite a while and there paid for...
Don't bother with the 195s in the saum either then..??

Have a look at what bullets the top F-class shooters are winning matches with and start there. I can tell you the 195s aren't on the list.

 

[No i deer]

Where do i look Dave..??
Over here the 7mm guns use the 180 and 184gr hybrids then the 180gr vlds,a few use scenars...
The 300wsm shooters favour the 215gr hybrids..
Some are testing the 230gr A tips.

 

[Willow]

Where do i look Dave..??
Over here the 7mm guns use the 180 and 184gr hybrids then the 180gr vlds,a few use scenars...
The 300wsm shooters favour the 215gr hybrids..
Some are testing the 230gr A tips.

There's a very good reason for that mate. They're proven time and time again when it comes to winning the big matches.

 

[No i deer]

It's definately not worth taking the 180gr ELDM's to a big match....
Ok for shooting some gongs with..!!

 

[338bigdog]

180 ELDm work just fine don’t try to push them at unreal speeds with a fast twist like a 8. I run a 8.5 Brux at 2850 in 280a. Not one blow up out of almost 500rnds. I will keep shooting these and test the 190 Atip when I can find some

 

[No i deer]

My 7mm saum blew some up at 2960fps in a 9 twist..
My 284 in a 9 twist hasn't blew any yet at 2840fps, somebody had 2 boxes off me yesterday so I will put that towards more 184gr hybrids

 

[Erik Cortina]

Hi Ben.
Thanks for your input..
I've been wondering why folk have been favouring the 300wsm and it's because they hold elevations better then..
I've got all the ballistics entered into my bal cal and it tells me that my 184gr hybrids shoots inside the 215gr hybrids...
According to my bal cal the 180gr ELDM's are by far the best wind bucker but unfortunately I had some blank targets from possible blowups..
Standing the 183gr smks,184gr hybrid,180gr ELDM and a 180gr scenar l side by side the figures don't follow our perception on how the bullets look....
The scenars are the least aerodynamic looking which does figure in the Bc's numbers..
Of the 3 others you'd expect the ELDM's to be 3rd over the other 2 other really sleek looking bullets...
Are hornady BC figures correct..??

AFAIK, they don't have an award for highest BC in F-Class.

 

[L W P]

The target SD's are interesting but not a reliable source of info then..
It was worth me asking the question..!!
There is so much more info on accurate shooter than you find over here..
It's a wealth of info..
I think my 1 in 8.25 barrel has a .220 freebore so probaly not long enough for the 190s..
I've 1500 of the 184s to use up first anyway..
As this coronavirus is beginning to stop big gathering of people these bullets may last quite a while the way it's heading .

Have you compared the 184 and 190 BTOL?

 

[No i deer]

AFAIK, they don't have an award for highest BC in F-Class.

Hi Erik.
The video of you shooting that 1.3 inch 5 shot group was posted on the GB f class Facebook page last week..
Very nice indeed