NEW! Berger 308 bullet with wicked 0.328 G7 BC!

[skiutah02]

Keep us posted and best of Luck at LR Nationals, paul.

185s are the uber reliable gold standard...thats what you want at the nats! good luck

Here is a report from Nationals about the 200.20x as requested.

This will be a long post but I wish to be through. I have been shooting 185Juggs at LR for the whole season with good success. After seeing my 300 yd group with the new 200.20x (above) I couldn't help but load up a batch that I could use for one day of LR if the practice target looked promising. On Tuesday LR practice, I had planned to shoot 12 total 200.20x rounds and see how they flew. I ended up taking 16 total, as I had a clean, cold barrel to foul and wanted to be sure that all was GTG. I took 1 shot at the gong at 950yds to verify 1000 yd zero and then walked them in near center. After 5 shots, I committed to a 10-shot group holding center the entire time. I had SMT delete the first five sighters so that the target made more sense and a SD could be displayed. Here is the target:

Not bad, just a little over 0.5 MOA at 1000. Good SD. I will confess that the vertical of the first 5-shots of the group had my blood pumping.....

On the first day of competition, I used my trusty 185JUG. While I really wanted to see how the 200.20x performed, I had invested too much time and energy in getting to know the 185 in my rifle to really use anything else on the first day. Wanted to make as good a showing at my 1st LR Nationals as I could. They performed very well for me and didn't show a lot of the vertical that others were talking about. I dropped 19 points for the day (194, 194, 193) and ended up in 6th place for the day's aggregate. I felt very good about this.

Here is a good example of the targets I saw that day. I strategically elected to shoot this one during a downpour with the hope that the winds might stabilize for a time. I was lucky, and they did moderate a bit, at least long enough to get some rounds on target, but it was challenging to see the target and get a handle on the wind as the flags were getting saturated. It was the first time I have ever shot in a significant rain, and was not going to be the last time that week....

On Day 2, because we had unlimited sighters I took out the 200s to see how they might fare. The first 4 had very good vertical (about 3-4in), but then #5 went about 8" lower. Shots #6,7 and 8 went back into the group, but then I had one go low into the 9 ring (about 12" lower) and I panicked and took back out the 185s and ultimately dropped 10 points. When I look at the target, the 9-shot group was about 8 in wide but about 15 inches tall. A real wind-bucker, but I really hate losing points to vertical so I elected to pull the plug and return the the 185s. I was not sure if this was a decent score, but the winds were stronger that day and was seeing more vertical with the 185s than I had seen the day before, so I starting thinking that the vertical I saw with the 200s might be closer to the 185 and I really could use that BC....I really am one who subscribes to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but I REALLY wanted to know how the 200.20x would compare. As Greg said, high risk high reward...

Here is the target (Sighters 1-9 are the 200.20x and you can see the velocity change for S10):

So I took a chance and used the 200s in the second match of the day. A little risky as I only had 2 sighters to get centered and relied on my dope from the practice match. I dropped 17 points and saw more vertical (similar to what others were seeing?) and a little worse SD. I don't blame the bullet, rather the person who thought this was a good idea to do with only 23 shots of load development. I returned to the 185 for the last match of the day and dropped 12 points. I slipped in the rankings to 13th place (still OK about how I was sitting, but I was happier about being in 6th place...). This is total speculation, but worth noting to put the scores into context with the other shooters as it was more challenging conditions (I thought) than the day before. If I had shot the 185s instead and scored at the average of my two other matches that day with the 185s, I would have retained my 6th place ranking for the 2-Day agg. Some of us have to learn things the hard way. Here is the target using the 200.20x:

During the team match (using 185s) my rifle developed a trigger problem and fired shot #3 when I went to recock the bolt after a trigger pull failed to drop the firing pin. I was lucky enough to still hit the target with a "7" and not screw someone else up with a crossfire. This had never happened before and I wasn't sure if I had accidentally hit the trigger, however this happened a second time on my very last shot of the match. The target looks nice if you exclude the two 7s...a 190 with two 7s. I had a great wind coach (Thanks John Rhykus!).

Unfortunately, I could not in good conscience use this rifle on the last day of individual LR matches and had to use my 223 Rem for the final two matches of the next day. It held up pretty well in the first match, but I dropped more points than I would have with the 308 and lost ground to the rest of the pack. It was raining again, but the wind was very mild for the first match in my relay (relay 5). Here is my target from that match using the 223R/90vld at 1000. Respectable, but there were some very high scores from others using their 308s.

In the second match, relays 1-3 had excellent conditions since the rain had passed and the winds were down, however the wind started picking up midway through relay 4 and was really inducing vertical in my 223R for my relay (5). No room for error in this talented crowd. Ultimately, I slid to 25th overall in the rankings for the 3-day LR agg as I hemorrhaged points using the 223. It was fun while it lasted....

Here is the target in the last match. Same rifle, same ammo, similar SD but higher winds. I think that you can see the wind induced vertical as compared to the previous target.

So with more through testing, I think that the 200.20x will be a great bullet for me. I believe in them enough that I have 2000 of them arriving tomorrow and asked John Hoover to make a pointing punch for the 200.20x for me and sent him 5 bullets. It arrived while I was away at Nationals and now see it for sale on his website (B-20)....Drew Rutherford

 

[Ned Ludd]

Very nice post Drew, thanks for sharing the data. I understand the analyses you're doing here, I try to do the same thing myself for every match I shoot. But FWIW - it can be very difficult to compare the results from different loads shot on different days/relays and come up with any definitive answer of what MIGHT have happened. There are simply too many variables involved.

As an example - IF you had used the 223/90s for the whole match and shot the average score you shot on Day 3, you would have ended up with 1524-36X, which would have been good for 24th place overall . One thing I think you can clearly see from analyzing this data is that your 200.20X and 90 VLD loads have close to double the SD value of your 185 load. For actual muzzle velocities (as opposed to velocities at the target), the ES/SD values would likely be even greater than indicated above as the initial input values will be much larger. For the .223, this is understandable for many of the reasons we've discussed in the past, but tightening that up for the 200.20X load to the level of your 185 load will likely be beneficial. I'm sure you'll get the 200.20X load worked out to your satisfaction in short order.

Having mentioned the SD values, on your 200.20X target for record, shots 1, 2, 5, and 12 all show the greatest vertical dispersion, and all were 8s. Strangely, only shots 2 and 5 had lower than average velocity at the target, and shot 2 was actually high, not low. In contrast, shot 12 had slightly higher than average velocity, but was low. Those data lead me to believe there was more going on than can be explained solely by velocity variance. You and others I spoke with during the match observed a fair amount of points dropped to vertical. So, you may well have also been dealing with vertical due to the specific wind conditions on that day combined with some particular feature(s) of the range. Unless the wind direction/conditions were nearly identical for the different loads, it does make generating meaningful comparison of the results somewhat more challenging. In any event, great post and thanks for taking the time to put this report together. Given the issues you had with the different loads and actually having to shoot a .223 at 1000 yd [GASP!!!], I think you shot extremely well!

 

[paulT]

Thanks for sharing info drew sure seems to have been a very challenging match and you did very well as for pointing the new 200.20x i thought the standard 200g hybrid B2 tipping punch would be GTG for the 200.20x, paul.

 

[skiutah02]

Having mentioned the SD values, on your 200.20X target for record, shots 1, 2, 5, and 12 all show the greatest vertical dispersion, and all were 8s. Strangely, only shots 2 and 5 had lower than average velocity at the target, and shot 2 was actually high, not low. In contrast, shot 12 had slightly higher than average velocity, but was low. Those data lead me to believe there was more going on than can be explained solely by velocity variance. You and others I spoke with during the match observed a fair amount of points dropped to vertical. So, you may well have also been dealing with vertical due to the specific wind conditions on that day combined with some particular feature(s) of the range. Unless the wind direction/conditions were nearly identical for the different loads, it does make generating meaningful comparison of the results somewhat more challenging. In any event, great post and thanks for taking the time to put this report together. Given the issues you had with the different loads and actually having to shoot a .223 at 1000 yd [GASP!!!], I think you shot extremely well!

Greg, I totally agree with you that there was a wind condition that was responsible for the vertical. I'm speculating that my 308 (which has excellent vertical and SD at 1000) opened up also throughout the day's shooting, but only to around 10-ring dispersion, whereas the 223 vertical I usually see at 1000 is about at its minimum on target 194-4x (Match 12) as the winds were very nearly ideal for that match. I strongly believe that my 308 would have scored much higher in that match if I could have used it. When the winds picked up for Match 13, you can see the effect on the 187-5x target. It has similar SD, same ammo, same rifle, same shooter but the vertical is much higher. IMHO, the last day at 1000 was the tamest conditions of the week and I think that the scores in those matches bear that out. I added the target from my last match to the post to help the reader see this.

I also agree that it is a bit of a fruitless endeavor to compare things, but I can't help myself...

I had alot of fun and the electronic targets certainly help in digesting/analyzing things. Drew

 

[skiutah02]

Thanks for sharing info drew sure seems to have been a very challenging match and you did very well as for pointing the new 200.20x i thought the standard 200g hybrid B2 tipping punch would be GTG for the 200.20x, paul.

I don't have the B2 punch, but the nose profile of the 200H and the 200.20X are different, so I do not think the B2 would be ideal. You'd have to ask John Hoover for the final say, however. Except for the loss of 5 bullets and the $3 to ship them to John, it was basically the same price for me to get one made as to get the B2, so that's what I did...Drew

 

[memilanuk]

Given the proclivity of that range (Lodi) to toss shots high or low without much if any warning... I don't know that I'd get too worked up one way or the other based on any plots coming out of there. There was speculation that the same head/tail winds that were tossing shots may also be affecting the downrange velocities to a degree as well.

 

[willbas]

Get my first 500 today will start to work on a load next week.

 

[Mikelf45]

Here is a report from Nationals about the 200.20x as requested.

This will be a long post but I wish to be through. I have been shooting 185Juggs at LR for the whole season with good success. After seeing my 300 yd group with the new 200.20x (above) I couldn't help but load up a batch that I could use for one day of LR if the practice target looked promising. On Tuesday LR practice, I had planned to shoot 12 total 200.20x rounds and see how they flew. I ended up taking 16 total, as I had a clean, cold barrel to foul and wanted to be sure that all was GTG. I took 1 shot at the gong at 950yds to verify 1000 yd zero and then walked them in near center. After 5 shots, I committed to a 10-shot group holding center the entire time. I had SMT delete the first five sighters so that the target made more sense and a SD could be displayed. Here is the target:

Not bad, just a little over 0.5 MOA at 1000. Good SD. I will confess that the vertical of the first 5-shots of the group had my blood pumping.....

On the first day of competition, I used my trusty 185JUG. While I really wanted to see how the 200.20x performed, I had invested too much time and energy in getting to know the 185 in my rifle to really use anything else on the first day. Wanted to make as good a showing at my 1st LR Nationals as I could. They performed very well for me and didn't show a lot of the vertical that others were talking about. I dropped 19 points for the day (194, 194, 193) and ended up in 6th place for the day's aggregate. I felt very good about this.

Here is a good example of the targets I saw that day. I strategically elected to shoot this one during a downpour with the hope that the winds might stabilize for a time. I was lucky, and they did moderate a bit, at least long enough to get some rounds on target, but it was challenging to see the target and get a handle on the wind as the flags were getting saturated. It was the first time I have ever shot in a significant rain, and was not going to be the last time that week....

On Day 2, because we had unlimited sighters I took out the 200s to see how they might fare. The first 4 had very good vertical (about 3-4in), but then #5 went about 8" lower. Shots #6,7 and 8 went back into the group, but then I had one go low into the 9 ring (about 12" lower) and I panicked and took back out the 185s and ultimately dropped 10 points. When I look at the target, the 9-shot group was about 8 in wide but about 15 inches tall. A real wind-bucker, but I really hate losing points to vertical so I elected to pull the plug and return the the 185s. I was not sure if this was a decent score, but the winds were stronger that day and was seeing more vertical with the 185s than I had seen the day before, so I starting thinking that the vertical I saw with the 200s might be closer to the 185 and I really could use that BC....I really am one who subscribes to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but I REALLY wanted to know how the 200.20x would compare. As Greg said, high risk high reward...

Here is the target (Sighters 1-9 are the 200.20x and you can see the velocity change for S10):

So I took a chance and used the 200s in the second match of the day. A little risky as I only had 2 sighters to get centered and relied on my dope from the practice match. I dropped 17 points and saw more vertical (similar to what others were seeing?) and a little worse SD. I don't blame the bullet, rather the person who thought this was a good idea to do with only 23 shots of load development. I returned to the 185 for the last match of the day and dropped 12 points. I slipped in the rankings to 13th place (still OK about how I was sitting, but I was happier about being in 6th place...). This is total speculation, but worth noting to put the scores into context with the other shooters as it was more challenging conditions (I thought) than the day before. If I had shot the 185s instead and scored at the average of my two other matches that day with the 185s, I would have retained my 6th place ranking for the 2-Day agg. Some of us have to learn things the hard way. Here is the target using the 200.20x:

During the team match (using 185s) my rifle developed a trigger problem and fired shot #3 when I went to recock the bolt after a trigger pull failed to drop the firing pin. I was lucky enough to still hit the target with a "7" and not screw someone else up with a crossfire. This had never happened before and I wasn't sure if I had accidentally hit the trigger, however this happened a second time on my very last shot of the match. The target looks nice if you exclude the two 7s...a 190 with two 7s. I had a great wind coach (Thanks John Rhykus!).

Unfortunately, I could not in good conscience use this rifle on the last day of individual LR matches and had to use my 223 Rem for the final two matches of the next day. It held up pretty well in the first match, but I dropped more points than I would have with the 308 and lost ground to the rest of the pack. It was raining again, but the wind was very mild for the first match in my relay (relay 5). Here is my target from that match using the 223R/90vld at 1000. Respectable, but there were some very high scores from others using their 308s.

In the second match, relays 1-3 had excellent conditions since the rain had passed and the winds were down, however the wind started picking up midway through relay 4 and was really inducing vertical in my 223R for my relay (5). No room for error in this talented crowd. Ultimately, I slid to 25th overall in the rankings for the 3-day LR agg as I hemorrhaged points using the 223. It was fun while it lasted....

Here is the target in the last match. Same rifle, same ammo, similar SD but higher winds. I think that you can see the wind induced vertical as compared to the previous target.

So with more through testing, I think that the 200.20x will be a great bullet for me. I believe in them enough that I have 2000 of them arriving tomorrow and asked John Hoover to make a pointing punch for the 200.20x for me and sent him 5 bullets. It arrived while I was away at Nationals and now see it for sale on his website (B-20)....Drew Rutherford

Thanks Drew.

 

[Laurie]

A great report! Everything else aside, seeing terminal velocities is fascinating. (Our GB electronic target ranges use the Kongsberg system which doesn't provide this facility.) Just out of interest, what is the MV with your 223 / 90 combination?

 

[skiutah02]

A great report! Everything else aside, seeing terminal velocities is fascinating. (Our GB electronic target ranges use the Kongsberg system which doesn't provide this facility.) Just out of interest, what is the MV with your 223 / 90 combination?

Thanks. It's 2835fps at 75oF. The rifle performed very well at midrange. I can post some etargets from 300, 500 and 600 if you want to scrutinize them, but don't wish to hijack this thread.... . Drew

 

[Laurie]

Thanks. It's 2835fps at 75oF. The rifle performed very well at midrange. I can post some etargets from 300, 500 and 600 if you want to scrutinize them, but don't wish to hijack this thread.... . Drew

Thanks .... No, don't do that. I was just interested in checking out Berger's G7 BC for the 224 90gn VLD. At 2,835, everything standard blah .. blah, 1K terminal velocities are predicted as 1,382 fps from 2,835 fps MV - right in the middle of the reported range! (I used to shoot pointed examples at 2,910 fps MV at 1,000, out to 1,225 yards on Blair Atholl's electronic targets on one memorable occasion.)

As you say, the size of that speed range is rather (worryingly) large though when compared to the 185 and 200gn 308 bullets' speeds. (Which I thought impressively small.)

The 200-20X looks like it'll be a helluva success for Berger. It's a bit too heavy (and it'll be more than a bit too expensive at UK prices when it eventually reaches us) for my tastes in 308 Win FTR having discovered I shoot consistently better with the 168 Hybrid over 185-210s in everything short of really horrible wind conditions. I try to keep an open eye and open mind though on these new developments, so again thank you sir for your excellent and illuminating feedback.

 

[willbas]

How much of a improvement will I have pointing the 200 2X?

 

[paulT]

How much of a improvement will I have pointing the 200 2X?

G7 BC wise @ +3% or so.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Team Sinclair used them to win the Long Range Nationals. If that tells you anything.

 

[willbas]

G7 BC wise @ +3% or so.

now all I have to do is point the 700 I have + 1000 on order.

 

[jsthntn247]

Shoot them before pointing all of them. My 90vld's went from sub 2" groups at 600 to 6" groups when I pointed them.

 

[memilanuk]

Shoot them before pointing all of them.

Not a bad idea, but in my experience, *sorting* them by OAL before pointing helps get rid of some of that weirdness. If the bullet OAL varies, they ain't gonna point up the same - not even close. If you end up buckling the heel or the ogive, then yeah, you just made things worse. Very easy to do, especially people are going for a perfect needle point, rather than just making it 'better' and more consistent.

 

[willbas]

Not a bad idea, but in my experience, *sorting* them by OAL before pointing helps get rid of some of that weirdness. If the bullet OAL varies, they ain't gonna point up the same - not even close. If you end up buckling the heel or the ogive, then yeah, you just made things worse. Very easy to do, especially people are going for a perfect needle point, rather than just making it 'better' and more consistent.

I will then trim, point and then sort by BTO

 

[jsthntn247]

Not a bad idea, but in my experience, *sorting* them by OAL before pointing helps get rid of some of that weirdness. If the bullet OAL varies, they ain't gonna point up the same - not even close. If you end up buckling the heel or the ogive, then yeah, you just made things worse. Very easy to do, especially people are going for a perfect needle point, rather than just making it 'better' and more consistent.

I sort by overall length and group in .001 increments as well. Grouping by bto before pointing doesn't matter because the bullet is ran up into the pointer setting on its base, the ogive makes no contact with the pointer, just the boat tail and tip.

 

[daljitgroup]

for more information you can check this link http://www.ammoland.com/2016/09/u-s...t-for-2017-world-championships/#axzz4Qze0osxr