Berger 7mm 190gr long range hybrid

[No i deer]

Hi Ben.
Thanks for your input..
I've been wondering why folk have been favouring the 300wsm and it's because they hold elevations better then..
I've got all the ballistics entered into my bal cal and it tells me that my 184gr hybrids shoots inside the 215gr hybrids...
According to my bal cal the 180gr ELDM's are by far the best wind bucker but unfortunately I had some blank targets from possible blowups..
Standing the 183gr smks,184gr hybrid,180gr ELDM and a 180gr scenar l side by side the figures don't follow our perception on how the bullets look....
The scenars are the least aerodynamic looking which does figure in the Bc's numbers..
Of the 3 others you'd expect the ELDM's to be 3rd over the other 2 other really sleek looking bullets...
Are hornady BC figures correct..??

 

[davidjoe]

The F

I might need to try these out. Let my wife have a try at F-Open! Awesome job today Oliver.

Mark, the F-Open shooters have voted that Tracy stays put in TR .

I wanted (and asked) to show you guys one of Olver’s targets. This one below, is the one demonstrating the best waterline of his set, and I believe of the 18 shooters of the whole day. Excellent accuracy with the 190’s!

(The pattern forms that same cone or “arrow” pointing to the right that our prevalent range cycles will show, when your gun is hammering in the 1’s without flyers.).

 

[ben_g]

Hi Ben.
Thanks for your input..
I've been wondering why folk have been favouring the 300wsm and it's because they hold elevations better then..
I've got all the ballistics entered into my bal cal and it tells me that my 184gr hybrids shoots inside the 215gr hybrids...
According to my bal cal the 180gr ELDM's are by far the best wind bucker but unfortunately I had some blank targets from possible blowups..
Standing the 183gr smks,184gr hybrid,180gr ELDM and a 180gr scenar l side by side the figures don't follow our perception on how the bullets look....
The scenars are the least aerodynamic looking which does figure in the Bc's numbers..
Of the 3 others you'd expect the ELDM's to be 3rd over the other 2 other really sleek looking bullets...
Are hornady BC figures correct..??

I also think the bigger cal bullets are easier to tune.
Relatively speaking they aren’t as long and pointy to achieve their BC, they need less twist and just don’t seem to be fussy. I have found the 215Berger Hybrid to be very easy to make work in the 300WSM and it only needs a 10twist barrel.
At 1000/1100 and 1200yards I would give the nod to the 30cal over the 7mm, by a small margin. There is no perceptible difference in wind calls between them, but in real match conditions the 30cal just seems to be more consistent.

I agree that simply applying the maths the high BC 7mm offerings look the best on paper. And they are tough to beat in competition.
However if we are just applying BC why don’t we see people having success with the heavier 150gr 6.5mm pills?? Could it be just because of their length? Are they beyond that easy to tune length??

The SAUM is a very popular chambering here in Aus, very few successful shooters are shooting anything heavier than the 184’s, and many are still getting on fine with 180 VLD’s or Hybrids. Even though it has boiler room to drive the 195’s the winners are all shooting 180 up to 184’s.
it will be interesting to see how the new 190goes in a SAUM, and what twist works best at low elevations.

In Australia there is a discipline called F-standard which limits bullets to 155gr in the 308 and 80.5gr in the 223 to level the ballistic playing field.
In your ballistic calculator the 223 will prove to run with The 308 all the way to 1000yards.
In the real world no one who is serious shoots a 223 in F-standard. The scores simply fall off beyond 800yards compared to the 308..... ??? Why is that if BC is the major determinate of performance at long range??
I don’t have the answer.

 

[Bindi2]

I shoot 215s in a 30 cal and 182s in a 7mm. The 7mm is way more wind sensitive than the 30 cal. the further out you go from 700.

 

[ben_g]

What cartridges are you seeing a 7mm being way more sensitive to wind?

I shoot pointed 180gr Hybrids at around 2940fps and pointed 215’s at the same velocity. I don’t think I could honestly say there is a huge wind difference, particularly inside 1000yards.
For me as I said above the 30cal is just a little more consistent when conditions get ugly.

 

[Bindi2]

280 at just over 2910 pointed. 30 06AI at 2810 not pointed

 

[No i deer]

I shot in a league match 2 Sunday's ago in very windy conditions inamongst very good company and I think the 2 shooters above me and the next 2 or 3 shooter behind me were using 215s in there 300wsms and I was using 184s in my saum.
The 300wsm are very popular over in the UK nowadays..
It makes me want to get one..
I might just get a 300wsm barrel fitted instead of buying another rifle if I can find time to get it done...

 

[Rope2horns]

I shot in a league match 2 Sunday's ago in very windy conditions inamongst very good company and I think the 2 shooters above me and the next 2 or 3 shooter behind me were using 215s in there 300wsms and I was using 184s in my saum.
The 300wsm are very popular over in the UK nowadays..
It makes me want to get one..
I might just get a 300wsm barrel fitted instead of buying another rifle if I can find time to get it done...

Do yall pair fire or string fire?

 

[No i deer]

Do yall pair fire or string fire?[/QUOTE shoot in pairs

 

[rardoin]

No real joy with RL-23 or N-160 in the straight .284. I'm gonna follow F-class John's lead and test RL-16 at 600 in the morning.

 

[lawrence97]

The F


Mark, the F-Open shooters have voted that Tracy stays put in TR .

I wanted (and asked) to show you guys one of Olver’s targets. This one below, is the one demonstrating the best waterline of his set, and I believe of the 18 shooters of the whole day. Excellent accuracy with the 190’s!

(The pattern forms that same cone or “arrow” pointing to the right that our prevalent range cycles will show, when your gun is hammering in the 1’s without flyers.).

View attachment 1163228

Was this shot with a magnum?
Any pics of the other strings?

 

[F Class John]

No real joy with RL-23 or N-160 in the straight .284. I'm gonna follow F-class John's lead and test RL-16 at 600 in the morning.

Try hitting a lower node than you’d expect. You just might be surprised with those 190s....

 

[rardoin]

I’ll be sweeping through lower 2700’s to low 2800’s with 9 charge weights. I did find a good zone at 2670 area with N160.

 

[lawrence97]

Try hitting a lower node than you’d expect. You just might be surprised with those 190s....

By running them extremely slow you lose all the benefits/advantage of the BC the 190’s should provide. I know Accuracy is the most important but I’d rather run 180’s or 184’s at the appropriate speeds and retain published BC.

This BC advantage might not be noticeable on a calm day but when the wind blows every inch matters.

 

[F Class John]

By running them extremely slow you lose all the benefits/advantage of the BC the 190’s should provide. I know Accuracy is the most important but I’d rather run 180’s or 184’s at the appropriate speeds and retain published BC.

This BC advantage might not be noticeable on a calm day but when the wind blows every inch matters.

I don't disagree with the logic and you can't disagree with the 2820 node on a 180 but straight from Berger they'll tell you that you can run the 190s up to about 100fps slower than a similar 180 and still retain a better BC. I'm not saying that slower is ideal, just saying there's a time and a place NOT to go for speed.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Actually, the effect of changing the BC of a selected bullet is much greater than the amount we can ever realistically change the velocity. For example, pointing bullets can increase BC by somewhere in the range of about 4%-7%. The difference between the BCs of pointed 180 Hybrids, and 190 Hybrids that come pointed from the manufacturer is about 4%. Using a 4% BC drop value for the 190 Hybrid, it is simple to estimate at JBM Ballistics that you'd have to decrease velocity of the 190s by about 120 fps in order to have the same effect on windage as a 5% drop in BC. A decrease in velocity of 120 fps would be huge in terms of load development.

In fact, it is very rare that a lighter, lower BC bullet can ever be pushed fast enough at safe operating pressure to overcome the BC deficit and obtain comparable wind deflection as observed with a heavier, higher BC bullet. Only if the lighter bullet has an extraordinarily high BC for its weight does this typically become possible. In other words, scratching for that last 20 or 30 fps extra velocity is liable to provide little benefit. Tune a high BC bullet at whatever [reasonable] velocity it wants and let the BC work for you.

 

[lawrence97]

I don't disagree with the logic and you can't disagree with the 2820 node on a 180 but straight from Berger they'll tell you that you can run the 190s up to about 100fps slower than a similar 180 and still retain a better BC. I'm not saying that slower is ideal, just saying there's a time and a place NOT to go for speed.

I verified published BC and did not come close to published out of a 284 Shehane w 190’s (An email was sent to Berger and then FWD to Applied Ballistics w no real answer yet regarding our findings). My partner and I tested 50 rds each at 1000 yards and ran the 190’s up to 2830 which is where I encountered pressure and also noticed 7% less BC than my tipped 184’s running 2830-2850. If I recall correctly, the 190’s had to be running at least 2750 to yield a BC benefit over the tipped 184’s.

I do agree with your statement on speed and I am not a fan of speed. I do like running lower nodes as long as accuracy and BC benefits are there. Excessive Speed seems to bring more problems than good and I don’t need that in a match.

 

[davidjoe]

By running them extremely slow you lose all the benefits/advantage of the BC the 190’s should provide. I know Accuracy is the most important but I’d rather run 180’s or 184’s at the appropriate speeds and retain published BC.

This BC advantage might not be noticeable on a calm day but when the wind blows every inch matters.

Here’s a 190 complete 600 yard practice string target I shot 5 minutes ago. Range conditions are no flags and 18 mph.

 

[davidjoe]

With lesser gusts than earlier. 184’s.

 

[vahena]

I am no expert by any means but I am very competitive person. I stopped chasing the latest and greatest new item out there. I shoot 284 shehane in all 3 of my rifles with tuners. In all 3 rifles I shoot the 180s bergers hybrids with laupa brass, I test my load to the fullest and test temp condition with loads and also test tuners with the different temp and keep records on my testing. As I need to know the rifle and how it reacts to conditions. And at that brings me to spending most of my time learning to read the wind as I believe a good wind reader can outshoot a competitor with a larger cartridge or higher BC. Now if you are a world class shooter which not a lot of us are, then that's another story all together. If and whenever, I get to that point then maybe I will venture more down the rabbit hole . JMHO
Rob