Yet another Annealing Question, but bare with me please!

[Brians356]

... adjust your socket's depth for your preference for case sidewall exposure by wadding up then jamming a ball of aluminum foil into the case body.

Did you mean jam it into the socket body?

 

[spclark]

Did you mean jam it into the socket body?

Yep, stuff enough into the socket to support your cases with your preferred amount of case sidewall showing. Short, fat cases like WSSM are what I worked this fix out for; standard sockets were too shallow, deep sockets too deep w/o a foil wad to take up the unneeded space.

 

[mac86951]

Did you mean jam it into the socket body?

Yep, stuff enough into the socket to support your cases with your preferred amount of case sidewall showing. Short, fat cases like WSSM are what I worked this fix out for; standard sockets were too shallow, deep sockets too deep w/o a foil wad to take up the unneeded space.

Another great idea, thank you!

-Mac

 

[Webster]

You cannot crack copper or cartridge brass by quenching it. Quench cracks can easily form in steel if it's quenched to fast. That's why oil is commonly used instead of water for steel.

 

[dixieppc]

mac86951 said:If you have a Harbor Freight near you a cordless drill will set you back $15 and a 10mm deep socket is another $1.50. And after you've done the first 20 you'll wonder why you ever worried about such a simple job. The other nice thing about using the drill and socket is that it takes very little room in my garage.

Exactly the way I look at it. Nothing against the guys that have made these fantastic automated machines to do this, I just prefer to keep things simple and cheap. Annealing rifle brass ain't rocket science and doesn't have to break the bank. Now on the other hand if one of these fellows that has made one of these fantastic automated machines would like to give me one, I sure wouldn't turn it down

 

[1shot]

Lots of great viewpoints here so I'd like to use this thread to settle a friendly argument between a couple of shooters that I know. I told them I honestly don't know the answer, but I think I know the place to find out. (Here). The question is if you working with new brass that is going to be re-formed and the necks turned, is it better to anneal before firing, after firing but before neck turning or after neck turning? Inquiring minds want to know!
Lloyd

 

[spclark]

Lloyd when I set about making 6XC out of a new box of Lapua's small-primered Palma brass I most certainly annealed them before starting to move brass around. Otherwise I think I would have abandoned the project as those sidewalls are pretty thick.

I'm trying the same thing currently with some R/P 308 BR brass which was made specifically for forming to smaller capacity & I'm not annealing it first as it's much thinner. So far it's working OK this way.

As for before / after turning? I prefer after myself, thinking the process doesn't benefit much from being annealed beforehand since so little metal's being removed. After leaves me thinking any residual stresses left from working have been 'ironed out' so to speak.

Be interesting to hear what others answer to your question.

 

[mikecr]

Definitely before firing.
I've only annealed once prior to turning and this was a special case(literally).
When I upsized 25wssm to 26cal there was too much springback in the necks to get the right turning mandrel fit. Keep in mind these necks start off 19+thou thick!

 

[1shot]

My thought is to turn last, but I'm the "rookie" as expressed by the 2 feuding parties I got drug into. Honestly, I think it is a legitimate question that deserves a logical answer, not because somebodies shooting buddies uncle did it that way. ;D
Lloyd

 

[Webster]

My guess would be to anneal, fire then neck turn. If it's annealed before firing it might fit the chamber dimensions better. Some people have to fire form more than once in some situations (sharp shoulders). Don’t see any difference in neck turning. The only area that might be a p-match might be that the cases already factory annealed. I don’t know if the factory anneal softens the brass to any degree. Seating force would indicate to me that new case necks have not been softened to any degree. Since you are probably stress relieving and not annealing to make the brass softer it shouldn’t matter if the cases are factory annealed and you put a stress relieve/anneal on top of it. You cannot ruin the brass unless you go to a high temp. Personally I don’t like the heat in a dark room until you see a light red color. I think it’s pushing the limits and you don’t have to get that hot to accomplish what you are trying to do.

Does anyone know if the factory anneal we see on cases is done after the case is fully formed from extruding or is the anneal color from an anneal before the final extrude? How does the factory anneal between the various extruding steps to turn a disc into a case?

 

[Nomad47]

I annealed about a dozen WW 284 Winchester brass before necking down to 6.5, then to 6mm. I caved the shoulder in on about half of them. Stopped annealing first.

 

[Webster]

I annealed about a dozen WW 284 Winchester brass before necking down to 6.5, then to 6mm. I caved the shoulder in on about half of them. Stopped annealing first.

Good comment on shoulder collapse. Looks like how severe the reform is to what you can do. Try light coat of 10W-30 motor oil for lube when reforming. Let us know if it reduces damage. Traditional sizing lubes are not very good for severe sizing. A slightly thicker oil film reduces friction between the case and die. If you reduce the friction there is less force pushing the shoulder down. I see a huge difference in force needed pushing a K&M expander mandrel into a case mouth with 10W-30 oil. If you reduce the friction there should be less force pushing the shoulder down. Since all of your cases didn't have shoulder collapse just a little better lube might help?

 

[Brians356]

I annealed about a dozen WW 284 Winchester brass before necking down to 6.5, then to 6mm. I caved the shoulder in on about half of them. Stopped annealing first.

Just necking down in two easy stages shouldn't require annealing, assuming the brass is reasonably fresh, since it is compressing rather than stretching the brass. A good bushing die and a little ordinary case lube.

 

[Webster]

I would think it's compressing the neck and pushing down on the shoulder?

 

[Brians356]

I would think it's compressing the neck and pushing down on the shoulder?

Uh huh, and when the cases hadn't been annealed - no problem.

 

[CatShooter]

I use a torch and the Hornady annealing adapter (same as a socket).

I tried the templak, and it was a waste of time.

I hold the neck in the TIP if the flame for 4 to 6 seconds (not critical)

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Here is a piece of a thread I posted in a while back.

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Annealing is a science - not hot enough - it doesn't do a thing. To hot and you destroy the case. Annealing is not for a beginner, the worst would be that you destroy your 2 dollars apiece Norma brass and blind yourself. The least is you waste your time and money. Everyone has an opinion but annealing can get to 20-30 re-loads and can increase your scoring based on tender case release or consistent neck tension. I shoot Lapua brass and I'm not wasting any money buying new brass when with care you can be like the Energizer Bunny and keep on going and going - or should I say loading and loading.

"Annealing is a science - not hot enough - it doesn't do a thing. To hot and you destroy the case. Annealing is not for a beginner, the worst would be that you destroy your 2 dollars apiece Norma brass and blind yourself."

Well, I guess everyone should quit annealing then, cuz none of us want to go blind... wait a minute - I remember something about going blind when I was 13, and it never happened.

So this must be BS!!

Annealing is part science and part black magic

I use a $2,500 instrument to test annealing, and annealing is not as critical as some would like you to believe, and is filled with black magic - .

Constant, uniform annealing can be done by hand...

But color can be deceiving - the cases on the right were annealed at the same time as the ones on the left, at the same temperature, for the same duration, but the ones on the left look like Lapua's annealing, the ones on the right have a silverish colour - the difference is that one group was made ~10 years earlier than the other - both are the same make.

The distance that colour travels on the case body can be deceiving... the case shown here would be thrown away by most everyone...

When it was annealed, a strange thing happened. It annealed in the flame normally, and and when dropped on the foil, it looked normal, and it lie there for a few seconds, then the dark "annealing colours" started running up the body to the head, like a fast burning fuse.

But when tested for hardness, the case head hardness had not been changed, and the case was fine to load.

You can see the indentations in the case head of both cases (low and on the right side of the case head - you might have to look hard).

Tested @ 0.0625x100Kg

 

[spclark]

I use a torch and the Hornady annealing adapter (same as a socket).

I tried the templak, and it was a waste of time.

I hold the neck in the TIP if the flame for 4 to 6 seconds (not critical)

Same here but for the Hornady thing. Sockets're handy, don't cost extra.

On the color thing: I've noticed new brass, run thru the SS media + detergent + LemiShine / citric acid, responds differently than same-brand brass processed a week ago, or a month, and allowed to sit on the shelf.

Something I'd guess with how the surface chemistry changes once exposed to air & water vapor over time.

Cool hardness tester you got there, hope it's useful in other ways than just keeping you from blinding yourself....

 

[Killick]

Progress pic