Yet another Annealing Question, but bare with me please!
- Thread starter mac86951
- Start date
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
snakepit said:
Hornady uses 475f (not available from MidwayUSA, so I got 450f) and put it ~1/4" below the shoulder on the body. They say point the flame at the neck only.
Ken Howell used 650f or 675f and put it very close to the shoulder break, but he was reforming cases, so he was concerned with more than just necks. He said point the flame at the middle of the shoulder.
I haven't seen 750f referenced.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
OH CRAP!!!! I have not been quenching my brass all this time! Tens of thousands of annealed cases and I've been doing it wrong! What a sad day!
Brians356, if you have a loose fitting socket you can simply tilt it into a pan and brass will fall out, no need to quench.
From Machinery's Handbook 29th edition.
Quenching and tempering - The primary hardening treatment for steel, quenching and tempering, usually consists of three successive operations: Heating the steel above the critical range and holding it at these temperatures for a sufficient time to approach a uniform solid solutions (austenitizing); cooling the steel rapidly by quenching in oil, water, brine, salt, or air to form a hard, usually brittle, metastable structure known as untempered or white martensite; tempering the steel by reheating it to a temperature below the critical range in order to obtain the required combination of hardness, strength, ductility, toughness, and structural stability (tempered martensite).
Annealing - The steel is heated to a temperature above or within the critical range, then cooled at a predetermined slow rate to produce a coarse pearlite structure. The treatment is used to soften the steel for improved machinability; to improve or restore ductility for subsequent forming operations; or to eliminate the residual stresses and microstructural effects of cold working.
I know we are annealing brass and not steel, but from the definitions above, would you quench when annealing?
Brians356, if you have a loose fitting socket you can simply tilt it into a pan and brass will fall out, no need to quench.
From Machinery's Handbook 29th edition.
Quenching and tempering - The primary hardening treatment for steel, quenching and tempering, usually consists of three successive operations: Heating the steel above the critical range and holding it at these temperatures for a sufficient time to approach a uniform solid solutions (austenitizing); cooling the steel rapidly by quenching in oil, water, brine, salt, or air to form a hard, usually brittle, metastable structure known as untempered or white martensite; tempering the steel by reheating it to a temperature below the critical range in order to obtain the required combination of hardness, strength, ductility, toughness, and structural stability (tempered martensite).
Annealing - The steel is heated to a temperature above or within the critical range, then cooled at a predetermined slow rate to produce a coarse pearlite structure. The treatment is used to soften the steel for improved machinability; to improve or restore ductility for subsequent forming operations; or to eliminate the residual stresses and microstructural effects of cold working.
I know we are annealing brass and not steel, but from the definitions above, would you quench when annealing?
1066 said:That's excellent sir. I have made one similar but using a much smaller 4" drum.Killick said:
This is a different set-up.
Here's my mark 3.
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/anmk3_zpsd1f4e6c3.mp4
Who makes the M3 or is that a homemader? If it is homemade it is quite the cat's meow! Here is my homemader.
diego
mac86951 said:
I've been using a drill-and-socket set-up for years with a Bernz-o-Matic propane torch I've had for 30 years or more. 223 to WSSM-size cases, LOTS of 308 in between, just change the socket used to hold the cases, dump 'em into a NECO sieve for cooling.
Advantages from annealing necks are: more uniform shoulder bump, more consistent neck tension, longer case neck life.
(For my needs I've not yet had reason to clean inside necks after annealing, but then since I switched to cleaning brass with SS pins my cases after cleaning may be cleaner than when brand new.)
Disadvantages: not something I'd want to do at the range; extra cost for a fresh bottle of propane (I use the tall skinny bottles, one lasts me two or three seasons if I don't steal it for my catalytic heater or camp stove); adds yet another step to prepping fired brass....
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
One more little thing: What we are trying to achieve is not really what the reference books refer to as annealing, but rather a modification of the brass's characteristics that does not make it too soft. We want to retain some of its elasticity, not render it dead soft, so perhaps a better term might be stress relieving. In any case, that is why it can be a bit tricky to get it right. We want to do just enough, but not too much to the brass. All of my modern experience in this area has been with a machine that closely controlled time in flames (two torches), working on magnum cases that were relatively thick and tall. IMO as necks get thinner, and cases shorter, the whole process becomes more critical as to setup and timing. If for instance, I were to pick a powder for my 6PPCs, that did not seem to require much neck tension for top accuracy (which 133 does) and set off to do some experimenting with well used brass, to see if I could improve its consistency of neck seating force, given that my necks are relatively thin (cut for a .262 neck chamber, for over .002 clearance) I would undoubtedly point my flame lower on the case, perhaps mid shoulder, and pay strict attention to tempilaq applied just below because of the proximity to the critical head area, which must not be softened.
I am pretty knowledgeable in the area of metallurgy but I keep it real cheap and simple. Hand held propane torch rotating the case in a socket using a battery powered drill. Count to ten and drop in a metal tray. I don’t know what temperature the cases are at but it must be at least 700F. In ten seconds I can see the start of case color change just below the shoulder. The area below the shoulder actually looks brighter and cleaner for some reason. I thought it would get darker like a factory anneal. It takes 20-22 seconds for the case to glow red (1050F). If I squeeze a case mouth with pliers it still has good strength so I am not over annealing. The rifle is a 6BR used for casual BR and GH hunting. It’s a little bit time consuming but I intend to only do my 200 cases once a year or when necks start splitting. With a good load the rifle shoots ~.350†groups so I don’t need to look for any improvements due to neck tension. I cannot shoot good enough to see any small improvements.
diego-ted said:1066 said:That's excellent sir. I have made one similar but using a much smaller 4" drum.Killick said:
This is a different set-up.
Here's my mark 3.
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/anmk3_zpsd1f4e6c3.mp4
Who makes the M3 or is that a homemader? If it is homemade it is quite the cat's meow! Here is my homemader.
diego
That's my machine Diego and thanks for the compliment. Yes, designed and built by me in my home workshop.
The dead horse rides on. Ken Howell the dean of case forming doesn't know what he is talking about if he says you have to quench. It accomplishes nothing. I am sure he is not a metallurgist in the copper industry. I heat treated 6BR cases at various times and temperatures before I retired. I measured the hardness and looked at the grain size. Very little hardness change and no grain size change. This indicates to me we we are stress relieving and not at a temperature that would soften the brass. If I was still working I would have done 5 seconds at various temperatures. Attached are my heat treating results. The case necks were heat treated in a lab furnace that was accurate to +/- 2F.
The 5 minute plot at the top would have been a little smoother if I took more hardness readings and averaged them. The 15 second plot shows very little hardness change at 1000F.
The 5 minute plot at the top would have been a little smoother if I took more hardness readings and averaged them. The 15 second plot shows very little hardness change at 1000F.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Since most of us do not have labs. We use a simpler method. If the brass is not responding as we would like, we try various things until it does, and the fact that is does confirms the correctness of our procedure. Cut and try. Then, if someone asks what we did and how it worked, we tell them.
Reforming cases, and evening out bullet seating force (that we take to be an indication of bullet pull) as well as reducing the differences in shoulder bump at a give die setting, may be different in what is required for the best results. Not having formed any cases, except for fire forming PPCs and AIs, I and numerous others have gotten satisfactory results, accomplishing what we set out to, without quenching cases. On the other hand, I have seen no evidence that would indicate that it does any harm, for any application. A friend uses the Hornady kit, and drops his cases in water, and the results have been gratifying. Putting something in print, does not make it more correct than before it was published. If you want to deal with references, mine would be Ken Light, as well as factory practice, for final annealing. I have never seen any film of case production that showed anything but air cooling, after flame annealing.
Reforming cases, and evening out bullet seating force (that we take to be an indication of bullet pull) as well as reducing the differences in shoulder bump at a give die setting, may be different in what is required for the best results. Not having formed any cases, except for fire forming PPCs and AIs, I and numerous others have gotten satisfactory results, accomplishing what we set out to, without quenching cases. On the other hand, I have seen no evidence that would indicate that it does any harm, for any application. A friend uses the Hornady kit, and drops his cases in water, and the results have been gratifying. Putting something in print, does not make it more correct than before it was published. If you want to deal with references, mine would be Ken Light, as well as factory practice, for final annealing. I have never seen any film of case production that showed anything but air cooling, after flame annealing.
RE; BoydAllen post
]I don't understand your point. I never contradicted trying various things by trial and error to improve accuracy. There is good information in my graph. The main point is that it appears we are stress relieving and not really annealing to make the brass softer. Also it doesn't matter if you heat to 700 or 1000F the hardness change is minimal. I believe Ken Light is a machinist not a metallurgist. On his website he states "Heat treating refers to a process wherein the metal is made harder ". Metals are heat treated for at least five reasons other than making them harder. Heat treating means applying heat to a metal for whatever reason.
]I don't understand your point. I never contradicted trying various things by trial and error to improve accuracy. There is good information in my graph. The main point is that it appears we are stress relieving and not really annealing to make the brass softer. Also it doesn't matter if you heat to 700 or 1000F the hardness change is minimal. I believe Ken Light is a machinist not a metallurgist. On his website he states "Heat treating refers to a process wherein the metal is made harder ". Metals are heat treated for at least five reasons other than making them harder. Heat treating means applying heat to a metal for whatever reason.
From metals about .com
PROCESS ANNEALING, definition:
Process, or sub-critical, annealing is used to counteract the hardening effects of a cold-working operation on a metal. After significant cold work, a piece may become too brittle to safely continue the working process. The piece may then be heated to a temperature anywhere below its austenitizing temperature until stresses have been removed from the lattice structure, and then slowly cooled to avoid introducing new stresses. This effectively anneals the material without significantly changing the phase fractions that have been established by prior heat treating processes.
Anywhere I look in this regard(for cartridge brass) temps between 700-1,000 are adequate for this.
Webster, are you suggesting this isn't true?
PROCESS ANNEALING, definition:
Process, or sub-critical, annealing is used to counteract the hardening effects of a cold-working operation on a metal. After significant cold work, a piece may become too brittle to safely continue the working process. The piece may then be heated to a temperature anywhere below its austenitizing temperature until stresses have been removed from the lattice structure, and then slowly cooled to avoid introducing new stresses. This effectively anneals the material without significantly changing the phase fractions that have been established by prior heat treating processes.
Anywhere I look in this regard(for cartridge brass) temps between 700-1,000 are adequate for this.
Webster, are you suggesting this isn't true?
mac86951 said:
It can be done by hand successfully, but the anneal will never be as consistent as a machine (I have access to a Bench Source) operating off a 20 lb. propane cylinder.
If you can avoid the following pitfalls in doing by hand , you "might" get decent repeatable results:
When I do it manually, spinning the case @ 180 rpm, and a hand held propane torch, not all cases will show a color change....no matter how clean they are. When this happens , you tend to keep it in the flame longer. and some never change color. When using the Benchsource, ALL cases had uniform color change ( different headstamps would have a slightly different appearance)
It is difficult to maintain the torch flame tip at a precise point relative to the cartridge case.
It is difficult to maintain the length and shape of the torch flame as the propane bottle depletes, and as the torch nozzle carbons up.
So, it depends on what level of precision you seek. If you are shooting competition and are serious about winning you must eliminate as many variables as possible = a properly set-up annealing machine. If you just shoot for fun and want longer case life and want to gain a bit on accuracy, anneal by hand....BUT err on the under-annealed side.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Given that a lot of fellows who want to experiment with annealing are not going to start off with a relatively expensive machine, there is one relatively inexpensive piece that will help your consistency quite a bit, and not cost much...an electronic metronome. A friend uses the Hornady kit, which is used in a manner similar to a the deep socket method so often described on the internet. The one difficulty is that if you are using a timer that requires that you watch it, you end up trying to watch two things at once, the position of the case in the flame, and the timer. The metronome, when set to 60 beats per second, audibly ticks off the seconds, so that you only are looking at one thing while annealing cases, the position of the case in the flame. My friend has seen a noticeable improvement in the consistency of the force that it takes to seat bullets in his .223 and .22-250 cases, and with that, his groups have fewer unexplained fliers. He said that after the first couple of hundred cases, he was able to watch the colors to tell when to pull cases from the flame, but that starting out, the metronome was a great help. The reason that I came up with this idea was that in my work helping a friend set up his annealing machine, I became aware of just how important accurate and consistent timing is to consistent results. Here is an example of the metronome.
http://www.amazon.com/Matrix-MR500-Metronome/dp/B0002F6ZJI/ref=sr_1_7?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1410707551&sr=1-7&keywords=metronome
There was a cheaper one on Amazon, but the type of battery it required is more expensive to replace. Also, if you are working near a computer, or can take a laptop to where you are annealing, there are free programs to do the same thing.
http://www.amazon.com/Matrix-MR500-Metronome/dp/B0002F6ZJI/ref=sr_1_7?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1410707551&sr=1-7&keywords=metronome
There was a cheaper one on Amazon, but the type of battery it required is more expensive to replace. Also, if you are working near a computer, or can take a laptop to where you are annealing, there are free programs to do the same thing.
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