Yet another Annealing Question, but bare with me please!
- Thread starter mac86951
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DJSBRS
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Not all brass has the same molecule makeup or neck thickness. Thus, annealing depends on the correct method that anneals that piece of brass correctly.
With different head stamps, one will see different required time to anneal based on the amount of heat and time simultaneously.
Never walk off a leave a machine or process running and expect the best job done.
I have pulled pieces of brass off the line due to split necks showing up, or previously over annealed and sent it in a batch. Very old brass ( many years old laying outside for years) can not be annealed to bring the correct life back into it. Annealing results depend on your methodology factors
We are fortunate to have found a process that extends the life of the now expensive brass.
DJ's Brass Service
With different head stamps, one will see different required time to anneal based on the amount of heat and time simultaneously.
Never walk off a leave a machine or process running and expect the best job done.
I have pulled pieces of brass off the line due to split necks showing up, or previously over annealed and sent it in a batch. Very old brass ( many years old laying outside for years) can not be annealed to bring the correct life back into it. Annealing results depend on your methodology factors
We are fortunate to have found a process that extends the life of the now expensive brass.
DJ's Brass Service
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Webster,
I did not mean to rain on your information, just to say that since we do not have your facilities that various cruder methods will probably be involved. When we set up my friend's machine the first time, we used 300, 400, and 500 degree Tempilaq painted in thin stripes from the outside corner of the shoulder to the head. That gave us a pretty good picture of how the heat was moving down the case. Once we had done that, we could see that given that our tooling was remaining constant, that the 500 degree would be all that would be required. Incidentally this was a two torch machine, that paused cases in the flames. Then we tested the cases that had been heated for various times, to see at what point the problem that we were trying to fix was solved. The first go round, we were a little too cautious, which was probably a lot better than overdoing it. What we ended up with was consistent bump while retaining good neck tension. This corresponded to the 500 degree being darkened down to where the factory Lapua annealing color normally is. For smaller cases, I would say that about a half inch or less below the shoulder should be about right, less as cases become shorter. Because there might be some difference in flame adjustment, a single test case, repeatedly cooled and cleaned, was used with the Tempilaq, each time that the machine was used.
I did not mean to rain on your information, just to say that since we do not have your facilities that various cruder methods will probably be involved. When we set up my friend's machine the first time, we used 300, 400, and 500 degree Tempilaq painted in thin stripes from the outside corner of the shoulder to the head. That gave us a pretty good picture of how the heat was moving down the case. Once we had done that, we could see that given that our tooling was remaining constant, that the 500 degree would be all that would be required. Incidentally this was a two torch machine, that paused cases in the flames. Then we tested the cases that had been heated for various times, to see at what point the problem that we were trying to fix was solved. The first go round, we were a little too cautious, which was probably a lot better than overdoing it. What we ended up with was consistent bump while retaining good neck tension. This corresponded to the 500 degree being darkened down to where the factory Lapua annealing color normally is. For smaller cases, I would say that about a half inch or less below the shoulder should be about right, less as cases become shorter. Because there might be some difference in flame adjustment, a single test case, repeatedly cooled and cleaned, was used with the Tempilaq, each time that the machine was used.
You seem to be implying that temperatures of 700-1,000degF are not adequate for a process anneal of cartridge brass. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your context. I'm sorry if that's the case.Webster said:
700-1,000 is effective to reduce the stresses we've added to our brass. This much is fully known already, and the remaining questions relate only to how we achieve it.
Personally, I use a lead dip. The temperatures are measured with a calibrated thermocouple, and I do know it fully serves the purpose at ~750degF +/-25.
This is not a 'full anneal', which we would never want.
Maybe you don't like the term 'process anneal' for brass, but prefer stress relieving?
I'm fine with that if process annealing is the wrong term to use.
700-1000F for 5-10 seconds doesn't reduce the hardness but it has to reduce the strain from cold working. This is a temperature range that must be effective as proven by people that use TempLac and effort to seat bullets and verticle in groups at long range. I am not saying it doesn't work it's just terminology. Do you call it a stress relief heat treatment that reduces grip on the bullet or annealing to make the brass softer so it has less grip. Nothing to worry about. From the graph I made with heat treatment data I don't think ayone is doing whats called an anneal to reduce hardness. We are trying to get to technical. I think that everyone on this website is probably accomplishing what they are trying to do. We just keep getting in a pissing match with terminology and metallurgy. Time at temperature is very important. Since it's impossible to anneal cases in a furnace at a constant temperature. We have to use a flame. This means the case is constantly increasing in temperature and we have to stop at some point before the case gets to hot. Just about every method I have seen on this website should work. Some people are probably getting the cases a little hoter than others but this is not a problem as long as you don't get to hot. The important thing is to do it the same way each time. A metallurgist I used to work with who is a consultant to the copper industry told me a red color is about 1050F. He said it was way to hot but he wasn't considering a very brief time at temperature. Commercial heat treatments for brass that has some size, not sheet metal are 1 hour at temp in a furnace. I think this is what my friend is familiar with. I heated one case with a single flame propane torch. The case was a bright red in about 20 seconds. I could sqeeze the case mouth shut easily with pliers. This tells me that I am safe a 10 seconds. I think most of the post I have seen on this website guys were annealing under ten seconds. I don't know if a case increases in temp more rapidly with two flames. I would think it does. When I aanneal/stress relieve 10 seconds I was surprised at how little change in color there was at the shoulder. I think I put most of the heat into the neck since it turned very dark and the shoulder was light colored. Looks like I don't get as much heat into the shoulder area as I should? I don't care about the shoulders getting annealed since it's basically a varmint rifle that always shoots groups that are better than I need. I started to anneal when I got 2 split necks. I don't do it for accuracy.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Erik Cortina said:
You nailed it - brass vs steel. I am not a metallurgist or materials scientist, but I'm pretty sure what's written about steel cannot be applied directly to brass - as you already alluded to. I don't think I am getting the brass case hot enough for quenching to cause a problem, not if it's only 450f just below the shoulder. I only quench for immediate handling. If my quenching was causing brittleness, wouldn't that show up in subsequent use cycles?
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Webster said:
True, but Ken got advice from a metallurgist he knew, I believe he cites that source in his book, but I don't have it to hand at this moment.
Do you happen to have actually read Ken Howell's book?
Ken does not claim the quenching is necessary in order to affect the properties of the heated portion of the brass, he simply said it was to arrest the spread of heat towards the base, and it was more in the way of a cautionary step in case someone was overzealous with the torch. If someone was careless, they could have softened the neck/shoulder far too much, but if they quenched at least they would be less likely to soften the critical head area, which could create a dangerous condition.
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True, but Ken got advice from a metallurgist he knew, I believe he cites that source in his book, but I don't have it to hand at this moment.
His website clearly states that the purpose of quenching is to harden metal. This only applies to ferrous alloys. I think his annealing machine is a wonderful tool for consistancy and doing a lot of cases.
True, but Ken got advice from a metallurgist he knew, I believe he cites that source in his book, but I don't have it to hand at this moment.
His website clearly states that the purpose of quenching is to harden metal. This only applies to ferrous alloys. I think his annealing machine is a wonderful tool for consistancy and doing a lot of cases.
In the 'science of annealing' article Joe R posted you can see that there are big changes with a relatively narrow temperature band. That is, narrow w/resp to a ~3600degF propane flame point on ~13thou thickness of brass.
Never understood the faith in tempilaq here..
If I went this route I would only trust timing and results of it -trial & error. I see no credible way to calibrate torch heating otherwise.
Never understood the faith in tempilaq here..
If I went this route I would only trust timing and results of it -trial & error. I see no credible way to calibrate torch heating otherwise.
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
FWIW: I sold my $500 annealer and have used a battery inline drill (400rpm) with a 11mm socket for 3 years now. The first 3 or 4 post pretty well describe how I anneal.
Unless I start doing hundreds at a time, I will continue as per the above.
FWIW #2: I turn all the lights off. I average about 4 seconds per piece. The flame will start to change to an orange and almost immediately you will see a hint of dull red on the neck. I drop the brass immediately. No quenching. I am on my 20th reload on some of my brass, 6mm.
Unless I start doing hundreds at a time, I will continue as per the above.
FWIW #2: I turn all the lights off. I average about 4 seconds per piece. The flame will start to change to an orange and almost immediately you will see a hint of dull red on the neck. I drop the brass immediately. No quenching. I am on my 20th reload on some of my brass, 6mm.
DennisH said:
Agreed for the most part. I anneal in a garage in the daytime. But not in direct sunlight. When I see orange flame come off the case neck (usually at the 4 to 5 second point), I drop the case onto a cookie sheet. I also use a deep well socket which I believe acts as a heat sink and helps keep the high temps away from the body of the case.
RE: JoeR
Clearly many people have misconceptions about this topic. Here's the definitive article about annealing, read and be illuminated.
The article is accurate to the point thaat they are not talking about rapid/flash annealing. All of the graphs are from 1 hour heat treatments in a furnace at constant temp. 5-10 seconds at the temperatures we are annealing at won't cause a rapid change in hardness.
Clearly many people have misconceptions about this topic. Here's the definitive article about annealing, read and be illuminated.
The article is accurate to the point thaat they are not talking about rapid/flash annealing. All of the graphs are from 1 hour heat treatments in a furnace at constant temp. 5-10 seconds at the temperatures we are annealing at won't cause a rapid change in hardness.
brians356 said:
Ok, first off I have to say I love this forum as most others I'd have received 3 weeks of comments on annealing metal frames on a chevy pickup, or other tangential story instead of more direct responses. That said, I am always interested in seeing the comments that show up on any forum for one of two reasons: Flaming, or getting the last word in.
My initial question requested a simple YES/NO response as to the socket method, can/could it be worthwhile? Followed by minimalist approach to what could be relatively successful.
From this question I read many shooters who have found the socket method to be valuable, if not for tighter groups it is for extended brass life. This intrigues me to try it. From there I read that process variables to look out for are those of standard temperature treating of any material: Uniformity, Exposure Time, Cool-down method, and consistency.
I really appreciate the metronome idea, that could be extremely useful for an adjustable repeatable method for controlling time. Tempilaq for process definition, and those that recommend watching the flame color and material color are excellent examples. As a process engineer with lots of hobbies that involve steel, carborizing flames, and heat-treatments of aluminum and steel, I was able to filter out the recommendations that I must buy a machine to do this, but appreciate the recommendations. Its a chicken and the egg question, but in this case the annealing machine wasn't created first. Instead it was only created to reduce time and improve consistency someone had to prove the viability before hand.
As for the water quenching, if anything the rapid cooling would harden the metal more than soften it which is what we are trying to do. With other metals/alloys, a work softening anneal would cool at high temp and come down slowly, but that assumes you heat to the point of restructuring the crystalline structure of the metal, which I would certainly assume we are not reaching that temperature in the cartridge brass. If we were reaching those temperatures I'd expect far more safety issues with over-annealed case bodies most prevalent in case-head separation/case stretching. Recommendations to use water, or keep the brass case-head in water might be partial to the above (seeing the water boil could be a visual technique to process verification), but I expect that it is really to help reduce number of removed fingerprints/home fires. Casting bullets is one where even the sweat off your brow could produce a very unsafe condition if it were to drop into the lead pot.
I'll get some 650°F Tempilaq, a fitting deep socket so sufficient case neck fits out, and try a few with manual torch. From there, I might look at building/procuring equipment should I see favorable results.
Thank you all again!
-Mac
mac86951 said:
You can simplify your search for appropriate sockets by keeping in mind one trick I fell upon when I went this route: adjust your socket's depth for your preference for case sidewall exposure by wadding up then jamming a ball of aluminum foil into the case body. You won't affect anything meaningful other than the case depth in this manner... I do this for a couple of cases I shoot that otherwise would sit either too deep or too shallow in the sockets I have / found.
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