ANNEALING

[TonyR]

Good to know. I usually use a Ken Light machine but I just got one of the Hornady kits because I want to reload some single cases to exhaustion. I think the Hornady works just like you are doing.

 

[thefitter]

I have always thought that they annealing processes that are discussed here and on other boards was fledgling experimentation and totally individual at best. Everyone seems to do it differently and until I see hard data like the OP was describing I will continue to search myself for the formula that I believe works for me. Because I have learned that much of this reloading "science" is faith based.

I appreciate the OPs effort.

I agree with you Fitter.

That is one of the reasons I am so interested in the inductive process. Differences in the thickness of brass the torch method, even on a timed machine, will be hit or miss at best. Uneven heating will be the ultimate outcome when trying to raise the temperature from the outside of the neck.

With the inductive process the heating is on a molecular level, thus creating an even heat, regardless of the thickness variance. There will be a difference in the tempering due to these variances, however I am thinking that due to the process being even heating, (inside the neck, outside the neck, and in the core or the metal itself) will tend to give better consistency to the process.

I, my self, cannot do this sort of testing, for I have neither the time, budget, or equipment to entertain many of my hypothesis. I am slowly building my tool chest and skill level to try things out, but I really appreciate all the knowledge I have gained from this forum. This is the reason I love this forum. It gives me a place to throw out the ideas and get the experienced comments, from those able to test, and those who have done this before.

2 other variable are the gas and torch. Most seem to use Propane. I however use MAPP and I was going to try a small Oxy Acetylene jewelers rig I have with a double apposing tip. All three of these gasses burn at different temps.

Even torches burn differently because they introduce oxygen into the flame at different rates. So 2 people using propane can have different temperature rates.

 

[thefitter]

... A very fine shooter I know told me early on that he is sure a lot of what he does is unnecessary. He just doesn't know which things!

That is what I meant by "faith based reloading".

 

[TonyR]

Faith is important because even the most exacting scientific proofs require assumptions, and most assumptions require some form of faith. My working assumption is that the variability of all of the things, big and little, that show up on the target is additive so anything I can reasonably do to reduce variability pays off either in a big way or in the sum of a lot off little ways. Given how little time it takes compared to all of the other things I do, I am very comfortable annealing before every match or testing session.

 

[thefitter]

... My working assumption is that the variability of all of the things, big and little, that show up on the target is additive so anything I can reasonably do to reduce variability pays off either in a big way or in the sum of a lot off little ways...

Well said. Although I will argue the time involved. This whole reloading thing has really cut into my workout time and it's showing in my waist line.

 

[Steve Blair]

Well said. Although I will argue the time involved. This whole reloading thing has really cut into my workout time and it's showing in my waist line.

Rig up a linkage so that you can do situps and resize cases at the same time.

 

[thefitter]

Well said. Although I will argue the time involved. This whole reloading thing has really cut into my workout time and it's showing in my waist line.

Rig up a linkage so that you can do situps and resize cases at the same time.

It's funny you said that because I have noticed that my right forearm is getting bigger... oh wait... forget I said that!

 

[TonyR]

Well said. Although I will argue the time involved. This whole reloading thing has really cut into my workout time and it's showing in my waist line.

Rig up a linkage so that you can do situps and resize cases at the same time.

It's funny you said that because I have noticed that my right forearm is getting bigger... oh wait... forget I said that!

Or power your annealing machine with an exercise bike ??

 

[Webster]

Great article on induction heating of cartridges. I think this is the future is they can keep the price down.

http://www.carolinamarksman.com/induction-annealing.html

 

[thefitter]

You know whats next right? Ladder tests using different annealing time durations.

12 seconds
13 seconds
14 seconds
etc,.

 

[TonyR]

You know whats next right? Ladder tests using different annealing time durations.

12 seconds
13 seconds
14 seconds
etc,.

Fitter. That would push the limits of my faith.

 

[moosetracker]

Great article on induction heating of cartridges. I think this is the future is they can keep the price down.

http://www.carolinamarksman.com/induction-annealing.html

I agree. Even if the process was not fully automated, as long as it's affordable, I think it's the way to go.

 

[DougMH]

It seems to me the old adage a little knowledge is a dangerous thing might apply here. So many different opinions, they can't possibly all be right.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me all the more or less automated tools that exist to perform annealing work on generally the same principle. The case is inserted into a big aluminum wheel which will sink heat from the head area so it is not annealed. The neck is put into one or two or three propane torches for a certain number of seconds. The neck is removed from the torch area and allowed to cool naturally for a period of time. Eventually, it falls into a catch pan. Do you suppose all these manufacturers doing this procedure in a nearly identical manner could ALL be doing it wrong. I tend to think not, so I try to follow their example.

In my case I will admit to being too cheap to purchase one of those machines. I have a large brass case holder that goes in my electric drill. This case holder sinks heat from the head area. Through experimentation, I've found that to get to the 650o melting point of my TempilStik, I have to leave the neck (electric drill rotating it in the flame) for about 6 seconds. I then let it fall on its side gently into an aluminum cake pan where it cools naturally (the head area cooling more rapidly than the neck area as the head area touches the aluminum of the cake pan where the neck does not).

My 2 cents.

 

[jonbearman]

This is for the fitter,off topic.Put weights you strap on your legs and arms and lift your legs and hold while reloading and the extra weight on your wrists will work your arms .Just a thought as my waist has grown alot since I started shooting.

 

[TonyR]

Doug. I believe that you are correct. The properties of the brass change to the same state as long as the brass is heated somewhere in the correct temperature range. Too low and nothing happens. Too high and the brass is ruined. It would appear that the range is something like 200 dgrees F. The only other requirement seems to be that the case head area stay in the "Too low" temperature range. Again just an opinion based on reading what the makers of the machines seem to be saying.

Jon. As for adding weights to things, I am going to try adding a big weight to my wallet to either give me some exercise whenever I buy the next piece of shooting gear or to make it harder to get it out of my pocket.

 

[BoydAllen]

This is the one that my friend and I used. You may notice that it is not set up to act as a heat sink. It is no longer available.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/11/new-versatile-brass-o-matic-annealing-machine/

 

[thefitter]

Do you suppose all these manufacturers doing this procedure in a nearly identical manner could ALL be doing it wrong...

I am in no way wanting to sound like I am attacking anyone here but these companies are not metallurgists they are business men.

It seems to me the hand annealing procedure has been floating around for quite a awhile. Then someone decided to automate their interpretation of proper annealing technique. This involved a wheel and a torch. Then more complicated spin offs emerged: timers, more torches and shiny materials etc,. But the original fundamental principal of a wheel and torches has not changed.

Now we have induction. No wheel but the same timed heating of the neck area. But for how long and at what temp is really needed? Evaluating the color of the brass during and after is such a subjective technique.

As I said before until I get hard scientific data, not from someones garage after work, of EXACTLY what temp and for how long I will just experiment like everyone else. An automated system will simply speed up my experimentation process. That's still beneficial.

 

[BoydAllen]

In the case of the 7mmWSM brass that we did, we painted three narrow stripes of 300 degree, 400 degree, and 500 degree Templaq from shoulder to head on a test case, and adjusted the time till the 500 degree was melted a little less than 1/2" below the shoulder. Subsequent FL sizing showed the desired uniformity of shoulder bump, and seating, good neck tension. The necks were not made too soft. Seating force fell within a range that seemed "normal". I would recommend Templaq to anyone setting up an annealing process, and would remind hand annealers that consistent flame position is also very desirable, along with consistent time. Good luck to you all.

 

[TonyR]

Fitter. I agree that evaluating the results of annealing by monitoring color changes is highly subjective but I also believe that the use of more objective methods has its own difficulties. Clearly there are tools available to metalurgists for comparing the properties of brass before and after annealing but these are not likely to be cost effective for individual shooters unless they work in that field. However, it is possible to measure the desired effects of annealing on prepped brass with a little effort. I anneal because testing has proven to me that concentricity and uniform neck tension have a significant effect on vertical dispersion at long range. I have also proven to myself that brass full length resized in my dies after annealing has very low neck runout, as do the loaded rounds, compared to resized brass that hasn't been annealed. The same effects can be seen when fireforming brass where the unannealed brass is less concentric after the first firing than the annealed brass. I have also compared the seating force required with annealed and unannealed brass using the K&M arbor press with the force measurement option and have found the annealed brass to be much more consistent. These differences do show up on the vertical dispersion on the target; however it is necessary to carefully control all of the other variables that effect vertical dispersion and fire large samples, on the order of 40-50 rounds per test session, to objectively measure the size of the effects. I went through all of this with my 6mmBR a couple of years ago and believe that my conclusions are valid for the combinations I tested. Given the ammunition costs and barrel wear, I have been unwilling to repeat these tests with my 7mms, but the same set of reloading procedures has given me satisfactory results with whatever cartridge have have applied them to.

 

[johara1]

Tony, I have the same findings you do and i can put numbers to it. I anneal every 3rd time after adding a strain gage to my chamber type seating die. The dasher brass is neck turned to .0105 and i use a .001 neck tension so you can really feel it also. After annealing 16-18 lbs. the first loading ,second 19 - 22 and the third 24 - 26 after that it goes really high like over 30. At 1K annealing,trimming and pointing show up........jim