Not calling anyone a liar... Sorry if it seemed that way. What I was trying to convey is I just can't see the sense in guys not wanting a parent case that's closer to their actual chambering. It seems wasteful, both in time and money to me. I have one, but it isn't a comp gun... although it's chambered as such. I've yet to have to go thru the process of fire forming and neck turning because I got brass with it. Honestly I dread the thought of it.
Why doesn’t Lapua make PPC brass?
- Thread starter dcali
- Start date
Grovey, do you know who Kevin Thomas is? I assure you, whatever he tells you about Lapua brass you can bet your boots it's the truth. ('Hi Kevin!')
Best regards and good shootin'!
Gene Beggs
Best regards and good shootin'!
Gene Beggs
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
Kevin Thomas is a Lapua / Capstone Group Representative so he knows more than just a little about their products.
- And at the "end of the day" just because it has a 220 R head-stamp on the pieces of brass, it is not really indicative of any non-suitability to be fire-formed and used in a PPC chamber. (quiet the contrary, I'm believing)
- Remember the 6 PPC when it was conceived by the 2 men who invented it, they used 220 Russian brass to make this cartridge, at least that is what I think that I red.
- Ron -
- And at the "end of the day" just because it has a 220 R head-stamp on the pieces of brass, it is not really indicative of any non-suitability to be fire-formed and used in a PPC chamber. (quiet the contrary, I'm believing)
- Remember the 6 PPC when it was conceived by the 2 men who invented it, they used 220 Russian brass to make this cartridge, at least that is what I think that I red.
- Ron -
ClassCat
Unlimited
Palmisano & Pindel Cartridge
Well, I for one am trying to get the short-range benchrest community to recognize the Lapua 220 Russian case for what it is right out of the box. And that is; a diamond in the rough that has been overlooked and underestimated ever since George Kelbly convinced Lapua to produce the 220 Russian many years ago when the Sako brass became unavailable.
The Lapua 220 Russian case, just as it comes from the box in either 22 or 6mm and with no-turn chambers is the equal of any PPC in short-range group shooting! Don't believe it? Let me show you. Get on Southwest airlines, land at the Midland International airport and I'll pick you up there. Twenty minutes later we can be at my tunnel range facility and you can even shoot my rifle in either 22 or 6mm. As an added bonus, you'll learn to tune a rifle with a state-of-the-art tuner.
The 220/6mm Beggs cartridges are nothing more or less than the Lapua 220 Russian case straight from the box with no modifications. The only change I made with the Beggs chambers was to decrease the radius at the junction of the neck and shoulder to .060. The standard 220 Russian cartridge as the Russian engineers designed it uses a .125 radius at this junction the same as the 220 Swift. As a result, both cartridges developed a reputation for excessive growth in length when reloaded.
About forty years ago, Palmisano and Pindell developed the PPC by blowing out the body taper of the Sako 220 Russian to the Ackley taper (.010 per inch) and increasing the shoulder angle from 21 to 30 degrees which resulted in a two grain increase in powder capacity. With the powders available at that time they needed the extra two grains to reach the desired muzzle velocity of 3200 fps with 68 grain 6mm bullets.
With the powders we have today the extra two grain capacity is not needed. The 220 Beggs, (aka Lapua 220 Russian) right out of the box, easily produces 3600 fps. The 6 Beggs easily reaches 3350 fps with 68 grain bullets.
Both cartridges are available with either tight-neck or no-turn chambers. If you feel you just have to have a tight neck chamber, the 220 Beggs uses a .250 neck diameter; the 6mm Beggs a .269. The no turn versions are .257 and .274 respectively.
During the past several weeks I've been busy in the tunnel experimenting with the no-turn versions of both the 220 and 6mm Beggs cartridges and can state with complete certainty that the no-turn versions are every bit as accurate as the tight necks which require neck turning.
Both the 220 and 6mm Beggs cartridges use the same Hornady bushing type sizing die by changing only the neck bushing. L.E. Wilson makes the straight-line bullet seaters which are caliber specific. At this time, in order to maintain standardization and help me recover my research and development expenses, the sizing and seater dies are available only from genebeggs@cableone.net
Chamber reamers are available direct from both JGS and PT&G.
So why would Lapua want to continue making their 220 Russian case just as it is?
I'll let you be the judge.
What percentage of Lapua 220 Russian cases are not destined to be blown out to make PPC cases? ??
So, what would be the reason/advantage to build a rifle chambered in 220/6mm Beggs instead of 6PPC or 100 short 22PPC? Well, 'STANDARDIZATION' is the biggest reason. No mismatches between chamber and sizing die. No difficulty with extraction. Another reason is no neck turning and/or case forming chores. Just pick the cases out of the box, run the necks over the appropriate expansion mandrel, chamfer, load and shoot. It doesn't get any easier than that.
"Now listen Beggs," you say, "How can you put your name on these cartridges and claim credit for them when it was Palmisano, Pindell, Russian engineers, George Kelbly and Lapua that are responsible for giving benchrest the whole shebang!?
Well, I don't claim credit for anything except specifying and standardizing the dimensions for my reamers and dies. As I told Butch Lambert when he built that beautiful little sporter, "You would be perfectly justified to engrave the tenon, 'Lapua 220 Russian.'
As I said earlier, it's a diamond in the rough that has been grossly overlooked and unappreciated for many years. Without the Lapua 220 Russian case, short-range benchrest group shooting would never have evolved to where it is today. Teen aggs are now common place.
Good shootin' !
Let me know if I can help you.
Gene Beggs
Hi Gene,
Yes I was thinking I saw some of his previous posts and thought he was a Rep. Hey... Again... absolutely no disrespect meant to him, or anyone else in this thread. Maybe it's my inexperience shining thru, but I just can't see the advantage to anyone shooting a 6ppc using it starting as a 220R case. I reckon that's the disconnect for me. They have to be selling a schit ton of it ?
Hey Grovey. You? Inexperienced? Nah, we are all inexperienced compared to some. Today we accuracy minded shooters are so fortunate to have the internet and the wonderful forums such as this to communicate world wide. State-of-the-art in rifle accuracy has reached levels that were unimaginable forty or fifty years ago.
Thank God for living in a country in which we are free to own and use our own personal firearms. May it forever be so.
E-mail if I can help you with anything. genebeggs@cableone.net
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Thanks for stopping by gene. Stop being a stranger!
dcali
Bullet Maker
When I started this thread, I figured I’d learn something, but I wasn’t sure what. Well, now I know. Thanks for the education!
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Let me tell you a story about Gene. A few years ago I wanted a couple of his wind probes. He asked if I was going to Seymour, Texas to shoot. He said he would bring them to the shoot. He drove from the Midland, Odessa, Texas area to Seymour to bring them. 265 miles!! He handed them to me and said he had to get back home. Wow!, 530 miles to help me. This is just the kind of person that Gene happens to be.
Hi Gene,
Have to agree with your assessments here, and the notion that there’s one hell of a lot more Lapua 6mm PPC cases out there than Lapua 220 Russians. At any rate, Lapua has given consideration to doing the PPC cartridge, but has never been able to justify it in the face of the realities of this particular market. They’re pretty responsive, and given the fact that they’re intimately familiar with the production of the Russian, switching to a PPC would be a slam-dunk. So it’s purely a market decision, and has nothing whatsoever to do with potential difficulties or tooling issues.
As an aside, when I first started with Sierra some, 30 years ago, Ferris Pindell was one of our machinists. He retired shortly after I started, but I was certainly aware of who he was and his prominence in the Benchrest community. Very nice guy, a true gentleman, and (obviously) one hell of a tool and die maker.
As an update to all, I’m no longer with Capstone, and so I am no longer speaking for Lapua, S-K, Vihtavuori or Berger in any official capacity. When I returned from the Nationals this past August, I learned that Capstone had made the decision to eliminate some costs in their operation. I was one of those costs, and my position had been eliminated. I remain an absolutely loyal user and advocate of all their brands. I’d have to say Lapua was the personal and professional highlight of my time in the industry. Hands down the best crew and best company it’s ever been my pleasure to work with. I’m still perfectly happy to answer questions pertaining to their products where I can, but please understand that it’s now a personal opinion, and I am not speaking in an “official” capacity.
Have to agree with your assessments here, and the notion that there’s one hell of a lot more Lapua 6mm PPC cases out there than Lapua 220 Russians. At any rate, Lapua has given consideration to doing the PPC cartridge, but has never been able to justify it in the face of the realities of this particular market. They’re pretty responsive, and given the fact that they’re intimately familiar with the production of the Russian, switching to a PPC would be a slam-dunk. So it’s purely a market decision, and has nothing whatsoever to do with potential difficulties or tooling issues.
As an aside, when I first started with Sierra some, 30 years ago, Ferris Pindell was one of our machinists. He retired shortly after I started, but I was certainly aware of who he was and his prominence in the Benchrest community. Very nice guy, a true gentleman, and (obviously) one hell of a tool and die maker.
As an update to all, I’m no longer with Capstone, and so I am no longer speaking for Lapua, S-K, Vihtavuori or Berger in any official capacity. When I returned from the Nationals this past August, I learned that Capstone had made the decision to eliminate some costs in their operation. I was one of those costs, and my position had been eliminated. I remain an absolutely loyal user and advocate of all their brands. I’d have to say Lapua was the personal and professional highlight of my time in the industry. Hands down the best crew and best company it’s ever been my pleasure to work with. I’m still perfectly happy to answer questions pertaining to their products where I can, but please understand that it’s now a personal opinion, and I am not speaking in an “official” capacity.
Actually, it’s Trump’s fault. This is an inverse industry; when the country is doing well (and shooters don’t feel threatened) sales drop off dramatically. When they’re feeling like theres serious threats to our liberty or the nation, sales go through the roof and hoarding becomes the order of the day. Obama was the best salesman this industry ever had, but if Hillary would have won, I’d probably be chained to my old desk!
Best wishes Kevin. We appreciate your insight. Any plans?
I’m back in uniform again. A Sheriff’s Deputy friend of mine contacted me while Steve Satern and I were down in Ft. Bliss doing an SDM/Advanced Marksmanship course with Dan Peters (formerly with USAMU). He said a position here in our school district had opened up, and asked me to apply for it. I did, and am now a School Protective Officer (SPO). My original background was both military and LEO, so I guess this brings me full circle and back to my roots. I’m finding it to be both oddly satisfying and truly rewarding. The district takes the position seriously, and we’ve been given good equipment, training and support to do the job. So yeah, I’m getting to be a sheepdog once again.
Incidentally, this is the first time in something over 20+ years that I find myself really looking forward to the SHOT Show in Las Vegas; because I won’t be there!
Butch,you build some of the best looking rifles I've ever seen.My 220 (Beggs) Russian
Good luck with your endeavors, Kevin.
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