Why doesn't Hornady make match grade bullets capable of competing with Berger bullets?

[davidjoe]

Today I revisited the 190 A-Tips from a .284. This was a combination choice that has not been given much attention in recent years.

I have to say that a ~3 inch vertical across 20 record shots isn’t normal for me. Maybe for others, but this is closer to a best case example of mine with any bullet, and was unexpected, from a box marked 2020 that simply needed to be used.

But the 190’s have been on my mind since the podcast of a few days ago. Hornady hadn’t focused much on their premium line over the course of the podcasts, and that has been concerning, and I’m glad for the attention on the bullet.

This is what we are looking for Hornady, -this particular box of bullets was as good as I have ever worked with, or better, and puts everything on me as a loader then a shooter, which is exactly the goal of a great match bullet. .5 moa over 20 shots at 600 yards I’ll take any day. I could have clicked down but that’s not the bullets’ fault, only the last shot is shown in the screen until it’s pulled up after saving.

 

[qldreloader]

I'm a "Normie". I shoot a Howa 1500 varmint chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor with a factory barrel. It wears a locally made Australian chassis by SCSA. The NF NXS 8-32 it wears cost more than the rifle and chassis. I load 140gr ELD-M bullets at magazine length and load development consisted of pressure testing. Load does 2650 fps.

Shot a 900m (nearly 1000 yard) match last month. Had an Accutak bipod and a rear bag - nothing fancy. The target had a 6" X ring and a 12" 10 ring. I dropped 2 rounds out of 12 (2 sighters and 10 to score) out of the 10 ring for a score of 98.3 out of a possible 100.10. The worst shot in the 9 ring was my last shot and it was about 2" out of the 10 ring. That was 12 rounds into 14" at 984 yards.

I don't think using Berger bullets would have made a difference. I need to learn to read wind better. Neither the rifle, bullets or me are match grade but I still have a great time.

 

[deshultz1]

Being from Nebraska I will be glad to jump in here. I am proud to say that I had the opportunity to become acquainted with Joyce Hornady and he even gave me a few pointers when I was beginning to reload rifle/pistol ammo.
Follow the money and look at the markets. Hornady has become one of the world's largest maker of components and ammunition. I don't believe they have tried too hard to corner the bench rest/accuracy market or they would have. They have done well, though. Some feel it is fine to hear the accuracy snobs run down a fine company that makes good quality products and supports the shooting community. I do not. I have been using their products for more than 50+ years and appreciate their continued dedication to improvement to our shooting world.
That's enough venting. By the way, their red tip on the bullets matches the Red of our Cornhuskers.
Go Big Red!

 

[davidjoe]

Being from Nebraska I will be glad to jump in here. I am proud to say that I had the opportunity to become acquainted with Joyce Hornady and he even gave me a few pointers when I was beginning to reload rifle/pistol ammo.
Follow the money and look at the markets. Hornady has become one of the world's largest maker of components and ammunition. I don't believe they have tried too hard to corner the bench rest/accuracy market or they would have. They have done well, though. Some feel it is fine to hear the accuracy snobs run down a fine company that makes good quality products and supports the shooting community. I do not. I have been using their products for more than 50+ years and appreciate their continued dedication to improvement to our shooting world.
That's enough venting. By the way, their red tip on the bullets matches the Red of our Cornhuskers.
Go Big Red!

We want to love them more than you or even Hornady can imagine. And we generally do.

They remain pure Americana,- business to bullet, from area code to accessibility. They are the hometown kid contending with global enterprises. We still have a couple left here.

Match shooters nourish this industry, generally at the expense of life’s other diversions. I need 100 times more as a match shooter than as a hunter or plinker.

Fact is that we happily pay to do what others do 9 to 5 to earn money, chase accuracy. Whether it’s rational or not is irrelevant, we do it, and with all brands, not just our employers’. Results may be as rigorous, or might not be, but one thing is certain, it’s voluntary and out of a love to see the best results possible.

Our feedback in real time is free R&D. We are unfiltered with no job to keep and no pal or personality to reward. It isn’t a substitute, but it’s an awfully good supplement.

 

[jelenko]

I'm a "Normie". I shoot a Howa 1500 varmint chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor with a factory barrel. It wears a locally made Australian chassis by SCSA. The NF NXS 8-32 it wears cost more than the rifle and chassis. I load 140gr ELD-M bullets at magazine length and load development consisted of pressure testing. Load does 2650 fps.

Shot a 900m (nearly 1000 yard) match last month. Had an Accutak bipod and a rear bag - nothing fancy. The target had a 6" X ring and a 12" 10 ring. I dropped 2 rounds out of 12 (2 sighters and 10 to score) out of the 10 ring for a score of 98.3 out of a possible 100.10. The worst shot in the 9 ring was my last shot and it was about 2" out of the 10 ring. That was 12 rounds into 14" at 984 yards.

I don't think using Berger bullets would have made a difference. I need to learn to read wind better. Neither the rifle, bullets or me are match grade but I still have a great time.

Nice shooting!

 

[jelenko]

What you call “normies” are good people that are the lifeblood of the shooting sports industry. Without their spending the industry would pale in comparison to what it is now. Without them, we would generate a hell of lot less in Pitman Robertson funds every year. Without them, competitors would have fewer options as the revenue generated from large volume sales are what give R&D their budgeted funds within companies. They are also our fellow shooters, who we should be helping and encouraging to learn more about the shooting sports.

For those that have insinuated that Hornady has neither brains nor the equipment, you are sorely mistaken. I’ve made the shooting sports industry my profession for the better part of the last 20 years. The folks at Hornady are some of the best and brightest in the business, at all levels within the company.

This is the second thread in recent history that wants to bash Hornady. This is a company that spends a tremendous amount of money to support the shooting sports. They donate money, product, and their time to make a difference. So if you don’t like their product…don’t buy it. Hell, voice your opinion about their shortcomings in a manner that could help them improve. But don’t sit here and bash a company and its people for trying to make some money and do good things for the shooting sports.

Well said!!

My perception is people who like to bash Hornady do so to make themselves feel superior.

It may very well be that for some the accuracy/consistency of Hornady bullets is less than they need. So, don't buy them.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Hornady are just the Honda Civic of bullets. The problem with berger and sierra are that they are forever out of stock and cost a lot more. Hornady knows the average joe is best served by a Honda, not a Lambo, so they make Hondas.

 

[Tangent]

I will say in support of Hornady they are almost always in stock, even in our poor relation UK market. I'm turn as it's hard to get through many rounds of practice here so cost becomes less of an issue and the logic, to me, is to just use the best components you can get. At 500m with a 20" .308 I think wind is far more of a factor for me than the colour of the box. I have a very accurate load with 155 Scenar-L's, a very consistent bullet, and they have a similar availability and price as Hornady. It's been impossible to buy Berger for some time now.

 

[L.Sherm]

The final strike for me with Hornady was 3.5 years ago.

 

[kindabitey]

I used some Hornady 105 BTHP in a 6BR last year, and was impressed as to how well they shot.
Most of their bullets are usually in stock most places, and are generally cheaper than Berger's. Are the
Berger's "better" than Hornady? Maybe, but they're useless if you can't buy them.
I just wish Hornady would make the 6mm 106 DOD a production item.

 

[6.5 forever]

The final strike for me with Hornady was 3.5 years ago.

6.5 ELDM, 147GR?

 

[David Milisock]

I don’t have the intimate knowledge of Hornady’s equipment and knowledge that you do but making a lateral move into match grade bullets would be a snap for Hornady. The company is large and profitable. With a few phone calls they could have whatever equipment and knowledge (by hiring experienced people away from competitors) and blammo - Hornady would be in the match bullet business. Companies poach valuable key employees from their competitors daily. If Hornady wanted to play in the match grade segment they would be doing it.

In my thinking Hornady is smart to do things as they are. They don't make a state of the art match grade bullet which is very expensive to make and therefore has a very high consumer price. That projectile also appeals (in terms of the masses) very few shooters, ergo has an extremely limited base for sales. READ lower profit margin!

Hornady currently mass produces the best bullets that Hornady has ever made, at a low cost of manufacturing, READ higher profit margins. Hornady bullets appeal to an extremely wide section of ammo purchasers and reloaders because for 99.9% of the shooting public a miss with a Hornady bullet is not because of the bullet. BECAUSE, 99.9% of the shots fired are just not that far awayl

I shoot 2 VMAX bulletts, a 40 grain in a 223 at excessive velocity, 3,900 FPS and a 75 grain in 6MM Remington again at 3,900 FPS. If I don't argue with the wife, lay off the coffee, (but not too much) and do my job they average 1 1/8" and 1 1/16" 5 shot groups respectively at 300 yards, if the wind cooperates with the 223.

On a day in the field on the prowel for critters I might not shoot at all or maybe I'll shoot 5 shots, rarely more.

I shoot Hornady 250 grain interlock SP in my 358 Norma Magnum at 3,200 FPS, in a custom Remington 03 with a 30" barrel. I've never averaged more than an 1 1/4" 5 shot group at 300 yards. I've taken game 2 times, both 1 shot kills at 400+ and 600+ yards. TOO MUCH gun, now a safe queen. Again any miss is not the bullets fault.

I shoot Hornady 500 grain solids and RNSP in my custom 450 Marlin dangerous game bolt rifle. It's iron sighted but produces a rather large ragged 3 shot hole with either projectile at the same impact point at 100 yards. Yes, I'm a wussy and only shoot 3 shots from the bench. I run off hand speed drills at 15, 25, 50 and 100 yards and keep the hits in the 6" center of 9" paper plates. Again any miss is not the bullets fault.

I shoot a ton of other Hornady bullets in other calibers, I also have used Sierra, Nosler and Barnes that I picked up at garage or estate sales on the cheap.

I assume that you see a pattern here, a company selling bullets that shoot more than well enough to a large client base that is willing to pay the price. Making a larger profit margin? Most likely yes!

 

[urbanrifleman]

The best thing that could ever happen to individual reloading market would be if Hornady took pity on us all and purchased a manufacturing facility for primers. Because I have a feeling that very shortly, there won't be any more coming from Vista. While I'm not a prophet, considering who has controlling ownership of Vista outdoors, I would say this was the next obvious move. A complete abandonment of supplying the reloading market.

So, let's hope that Hornady decides to expand its operations because frankly, they are one of the only companies that has not almost completely abandoned its customers.

 

[L.Sherm]

6.5 ELDM, 147GR?

Nope, Dec. 2021

 

[ASbobcat]

The supposition of this thread is ill informed.

Hornady's ELDM series bullets are the most accurate bullets I have ever shot. I'm glad there are still those who don't recognize that. It keeps the price down.

I'm still astonished that so many pay Berger's absurd ransom. I stopped buying them many years ago when I found length variations within individual boxes of 6 and 6.5mm VLD Match exceeding .040in. No, that's not a typo. I wouldn't waste the powder to shoot them if you gave them to me.

I also did a side-by-side comparison and found Hornady 108's more accurate than Sierra 107MK (see attachment). Those are all 5 shot groups.

 

[ASbobcat]

What you call “normies” are good people that are the lifeblood of the shooting sports industry. Without their spending the industry would pale in comparison to what it is now. Without them, we would generate a hell of lot less in Pitman Robertson funds every year. Without them, competitors would have fewer options as the revenue generated from large volume sales are what give R&D their budgeted funds within companies. They are also our fellow shooters, who we should be helping and encouraging to learn more about the shooting sports.

For those that have insinuated that Hornady has neither brains nor the equipment, you are sorely mistaken. I’ve made the shooting sports industry my profession for the better part of the last 20 years. The folks at Hornady are some of the best and brightest in the business, at all levels within the company.

This is the second thread in recent history that wants to bash Hornady. This is a company that spends a tremendous amount of money to support the shooting sports. They donate money, product, and their time to make a difference. So if you don’t like their product…don’t buy it. Hell, voice your opinion about their shortcomings in a manner that could help them improve. But don’t sit here and bash a company and its people for trying to make some money and do good things for the shooting sports.

Amen brother

 

[Bill K]

With the size and breadth of Hornady's research and production, why don't they produce match grade bullets that are capable of competing with Berger bullets? Like benchrest, F Class, world record class bullets.

Seems Hornady's engineers and ballisticians etc enjoy talking the talk, but they can't walk the walk.

Let's not even mention brass quality.

In your shooting in those classes have you tried the Hornady A-tips and compared them too the Berger's, you shoot ? And depending on the caliber you are shooting, I think they would do a fine job just as well with the proper worked up load.

 

[urbanrifleman]

The supposition of this thread is ill informed.

Hornady's ELDM series bullets are the most accurate bullets I have ever shot. I'm glad there are still those who don't recognize that. It keeps the price down.

I'm still astonished that so many pay Berger's absurd ransom. I stopped buying them many years ago when I found length variations within individual boxes of 6 and 6.5mm VLD Match exceeding .040in. No, that's not a typo. I wouldn't waste the powder to shoot them if you gave them to me.

I also did a side-by-side comparison and found Hornady 108's more accurate than Sierra 107MK (see attachment). Those are all 5 shot groups.

I used to bash Hornady's quality years ago. But I have stood corrected in recent years. I agree with your assessment. The .22 88 ELDM is one of the most shockingly accurate bullets for long range I've ever shot.

The new 62 grain ELDVT has simply obsoleted all bullets in that class. It is by far the most innovative invention in bullet technology in maybe 30 years. Not only does it have a ballistic coefficient that's nearly double all of the competitors it blows up at least as much if not more than the most explosive varmint bullets I've tried.

 

[rardoin]

In your shooting in those classes have you tried the Hornady A-tips and compared them too the Berger's, you shoot ? And depending on the caliber you are shooting, I think they would do a fine job just as well with the proper worked up load.

I have extensive experience with the 190 A-tips compared to 180/184 Berger hybrids. The A-tip is hands down (including custom bullets I have shot) has the most consistent intra/inter lot dimensions of any bullet I have measured. Unbelievably consistent. The BC is phenomenal! However, it was difficult to shoot a clean at 1000yds due to a bastard child vertical 9 popping up in most 20 shot matches. They have a significant advantage in windy conditions compared to the commonly used 180/184/215 hybrid when only considering wind call errors. It was the consistently high vertical dispersion that made them unable to consistently win F-class matches, in my experience. After 5 barrels of testing/competing with the 190 A-tips, I gave up. At the time they were significantly more expensive than the Berger 180/184 but I still believed I could find that right combination...to no avail. I am not alone in that F-class endeavour.

 

[6fatrat]

88 ELD's for long range.