Vudoo V22S SS BR/F Class Action

[Dub]

this sure has turned into a non productive pissing match. After reading all of it I am pretty sure Vudoo is a hard no for me

 

[Tony K Harper]

MB

You are the one that started with the personal insults. I have done all I can to avoid this.
I told you before I'm glad you have chosen to get into RFBR. I hope you are a success. We need more equipment choices.
What we don't need is someone with an ego so big that it will not allow him to take any advice.
Believe it or not the world did not start the day you were born.
You are right, I am not going to let you disrespect me on a public forum without answering back.
I have offered time and again to end this non sense. But you keep coming back with the insults.
If it is so important for you to have the last word, go for it, if you can do that without insulting me I will not answer back.

TKH

 

[Dub]

the plot thickens.....

 

[RAVAGE88]

sir I own a voodoo right now and it is pretty nice

Mr. Harper is one of the few (dozen or so) folks (non calfee term as being used here) I would trust to know how to get features that work in a design of a RIMFIRE ACTION and possibly a stock or tuner, trigger not sure

you would be well advised to ask his opinion in a phone call or personal attendance to see what has worked over the last decade and more importantly,

perhaps what has not worked

also Landry is pretty bright as well, and Landry might remember me as buying the Robertson stocked tuner gun from him a decade ago or more

jefferson in canada

Jefferson, I appreciate your response and your approach, but no sir, I have no reason to ask Tony anything. I’m generally surrounded by people that don’t just regurgitate information but instead, understand at a deeper level. What I’m seeing here is someone that has no desire to understand anything outside of how he says it should be. That’s not collaboration and that offers no growth to anything. Instead, that’s a continuation of a limited scope of understanding and the, “because I said so,” routine. I won’t play in that as that’s not what the rifle you’re currently shooting was founded on.

Again, I truly appreciate your response, but there are areas of this that I take so seriously that I won’t consider anecdotal info as fact.

MB

 

[VLNBYR]

The Vudoo will do just fine. Glenn Spencer and his Lawton has gone head to head with Ivan Wells and more than held his own. I had a Stiller Lonestar that I wouldn't mind having back, it is still winning matches for it's new owner. The Suhl and the Anshutz in good hands still win a lot too. It would be possible to create a statistically valid test to see if there was any real difference in the ultimate capabilities of these actions but it would take a boatload of cash and several years of shooting.

 

[RAVAGE88]

this sure has turned into a non productive pissing match. After reading all of it I am pretty sure Vudoo is a hard no for me

Thats fine Dub, we all have our reasons for choosing what we choose. I choose to stand in the spot I’ve chosen for the reasons I’ve chosen and you’re certainly welcome to do the same.

Thanks,
MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

I realize the topic got off to Hoop Stress and I think I understand that is about internal force pushing out and around the cylinder, but I also think I understand what point Tony is getting at as well (don't want to speak for him so I will ask in my own way). I think we may be debating apples to oranges a bit, but also don't understand how the cylindrical stress impacts the vertical stress where the barrel meets the action.

If we ignore the pressure from the cartridge being ignited and pushing out against action (what I see as Hoop stress), there is certainly still a force being applied in an upward direction where the tenon meets the action. At it's simplest, its a an equal and opposite force calculation based on how long the barrel is, it's weight, etc.

To me there would be three main outside aspects that then would affect this joints rigidity (and ability to counteract this vertical stress). One is the type and number of threads per inch and how much force this counteracts. I suppose in a perfect fit, this is more about horizontal force as it pulls shoulder against the face of the action. 2nd would be how much of that force is managed by the shoulder against the face of the action. And third, how much of that force is then also spread to the walls of the action where it threads in. I suspect this force actually utilizes much more of the action length than just the joint length itself.

It would appear that all else being equal, and assuming for example the action is bolted into an immovable mount (just for arguments sake) that if one was to apply force on the end of the barrel in the vertical plane, then it would seem that an action with a thinner wall would not be able to counteract as much force as that with a thicker wall before some type of deformation would take place. I don't think this is really a big surprise.

Now, the question then becomes, is there ever enough force applied through gravity to a barrel to make this a real issue assuming proper fit of threading specs, tenon length, etc based on the material being used? I don't know the answer to that question, but it's clear that Mike doesn't think it does or I don't think he would have done what he did.

With that being said and I think the question some would like to understand is what Advantage does the larger tenon diameter provide that the smaller doesn't. I think that may be proprietary, but trying to get to the real root of the questions.

With all the hoopla, I missed this post....my apologies Hozzie.

Now we’re getting to the other factors involved as it relates to the actual joint and you’re nailing key features that ensure the joint is sound. Lee was also working in this direction and his photo was a nice visual. As we consider the joint, the barrel is the other side of the equation an now the pendulum swings in the other direction. Remember, the argument has been “support” and as we talk about yield, the force applied based on pressure is the best measurement of material yield for the front ring with all factors considered.

So, let’s look at the tenon diameter and if we back up quite a ways and use the 40 schedule pipe analogy, then it’s fair to look at the difference of a 3/4” diameter bolt and a 1.062” diameter bolt of some grade. If we screw each into a respective receptacle and not bring two faces together that creates a unified joint, apply a bending moment along the length of the threaded portion of the bolt, which will resist bending the most?

Now, let’s take our respective barrels, one 3/4” tenon and one 1.062” tenon and screw them into their respective receivers but not bring two faces together to avoid creating a unified joint. If we apply a bending moment, which one yields first? Now, let’s bring the faces together, apply the level of torque befitting the diameter of the barrel tenon....what just happened? Is the argument about support as it relates to what is a unified joint given either tenon diameter something that even makes sense? Especially given the numbers you’ve taken time to dive into?

MB

 

[group therapy]

I ate it already....

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

With all the hoopla, I missed this post....my apologies Hozzie.

Now we’re getting to the other factors involved as it relates to the actual joint and you’re nailing key features that ensure the joint is sound. Lee was also working in this direction and his photo was a nice visual. As we consider the joint, the barrel is the other side of the equation an now the pendulum swings in the other direction. Remember, the argument has been “support” and as we talk about yield, the force applied based on pressure is the best measurement of material yield for the front ring with all factors considered.

So, let’s look at the tenon diameter and if we back up quite a ways and use the 40 schedule pipe analogy, then it’s fair to look at the difference of a 3/4” diameter bolt and a 1.062” diameter bolt of some grade. If we screw each into a respective receptacle and not bring two faces together that creates a unified joint, apply a bending moment along the length of the threaded portion of the bolt, which will resist bending the most?

Now, let’s take our respective barrels, one 3/4” tenon and one 1.062” tenon and screw them into their respective receivers but not bring two faces together to avoid creating a unified joint. If we apply a bending moment, which one yields first? Now, let’s bring the faces together, apply the level of torque befitting the diameter of the barrel tenon....what just happened? Is the argument about support as it relates to what is a unified joint given either tenon diameter something that even makes sense? Especially given the numbers you’ve taken time to dive into?

MB

Question, with the larger diameter taken into consideration and a solid joint unification. is the goal then is to provide minimal barrel flex forward of the front ring?

Lee

 

[davidjoe]

I didn’t read all the pages, so maybe this is redundant, but the action diameter and the tenon major diameter of the Vudoo closely approximate the 40-X .22 LR, I believe.

I have two of those antiques in use. Were they not dimensionally the largest, most robust action and barrel regularly produced? (They appear bigger than my 52’s). Which if so, by implication would make Vudoo barreled actions the most robust of current, regular production?

I tend to associate the smaller diameter tenons on some .22’s with press fit, or in any case smaller diameter barrels than the equivalent of a heavy barrel on a 40-X.

 

[RAVAGE88]

I didn’t read all the pages, so maybe this is redundant, but the action diameter and the tenon major diameter of the Vudoo closely approximate the 40-X .22 LR, I believe.

I have two of those antiques in use. Were they not dimensionally the largest, most robust action and barrel regularly produced? (They appear bigger than my 52’s). Which if so, by implication would make Vudoo barreled actions the most robust of current, regular production?

I tend to associate the smaller diameter tenons on some .22’s with press fit, or in any case smaller diameter barrels than the equivalent of a heavy barrel on a 40-X.

This is a good question DJ and yes, the diameter is the same but thread class on the V-22 is considerably improved. There are key reasons the thread specs of the 40X rimfire were carried over from the Rem centerfire stuff and there are reasons I’m using it, and this is where, for some, things are getting a bit lost. As it relates to “robust,” the current smaller and larger threaded tenons are plenty robust, but the pinned interfaces, not so much.

I believe the point in all the mess from yesterday is, there’s so much more to the conversation than just the “thickness” of the front ring, especially as it relates to what’s truly relevant....not just someone’s opinion about what’s believed to be “common sense.”

Thanks DJ,

MB

 

[USMCDOC]

So let me ask, whom are the current makers of a rimfire br actions right now.. Stiller, DiOrio and Voodoo? Is there anyone else that is currently making a rimfire br action at this time?

 

[Hozzie]

So let me ask, whom are the current makers of a rimfire br actions right now.. Stiller, DiOrio and Voodoo? Is there anyone else that is currently making a rimfire br action at this time?

RimX is one of the new one's as well. Don't know much about them, but see their name on some of the forums.

 

[Schutzen2]

That is pretty rich coming from someone with no accomplishments. I am quite sure you don't care about anything but your own ego.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

TKH

Maybe not, but you can hold it's head under water.

 

[Schutzen2]

RimX is one of the new one's as well. Don't know much about them, but see their name on some of the forums.

It's a repeater. Nothing close to a br action.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Maybe not, but you can hold it's head under water.

Uh, no, you can’t.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

RimX is one of the new one's as well. Don't know much about them, but see their name on some of the forums.

I have a RimX, it will only feed from a magazine because of the extractor design. The extractor(s) wont snap over the case head.

MB

 

[Schutzen2]

Uh, no, you can’t.

MB

Apologies Mike. That wasn't meant to be directed at you.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Apologies Mike. That wasn't meant to be directed at you.

No worries Dude, I know, I was just playing along....

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

Ok, things have settled down and I believe we can get this back on track. I've received quite a collection of really good questions over the last few weeks, so I figured I'd circle back and drop in some spec-related info on the action. As I believe most are now aware, this action isn't intended solely for Benchrest, hence some pretty obvious differences, so my first hope is, everyone will recognize that the goals in it's design are a bit more far-reaching than would be construed as typical. Based on what I'm seeing, I expect performance in the BR circles will surprise more than a few.

There's been a lot of chatter about tenon size and other such things but the main thing is, I listened to shooters across many different disciplines to arrive at what this action is all about....emotions were not involved in the development. If I were to disregard some of the info I received and consider as important to the overall goals, I could have easily used a tenon that is seen more broadly across what's exclusively common to BR shooters. In essence, everything has its place.

V-22S Features

● Same Physical Footprint as the Remington 700 Short Action
● Remington 700 Pinned Trigger Interface
● Six O?clock Ignition
● Vertical Sear Fire Control with Vudoo/Flavio BR-VS Trigger (angled cocking piece also available for use with other triggers)
● Three Lug, 60 Degree Bolt Lift
● Available in Right Bolt/Right Port, Right Bolt/Left Port, Left Bolt/Left Port and Left Bolt/Right Port
● Toolless Bolt Assembly/Disassembly
● Complete Color-Coded Mainspring Kit (13 to 18 lb. force)
● Integral 11mm Dovetail Mount
● Unique Picatinny Rail available in 0, 20, 30 and 40 MOA
● .860 Base Screw Spacing for All Currently Available Mounts/Rails

This action does not use a trigger hanger, but instead, the fire control is adjustable/tunable in a couple of different ways. Since one can use my trigger or any of the other available pinned interface triggers, there are six different springs included so you can more finely tune while also being able to adjust hand-off, pin fall, etc.

What has been interesting to watch is the reaction to the bolt assembly from many that have handled this action. It requires no tools to disassemble/reassemble and when I demonstrated this more recently, I was asked, "where are the shims?" Well, there are no shims in the bolt assembly or anywhere else in the action.

Thanks,
MB