VihtaVuori Powder Discussion

[Retired shooter]

Does anyone have experience with the VV N530 powder in 6 ARC with 110 grain bullets. 1000 yds +.
I have a new one pounder of N 540 , how does it compare with 530 ? Thoughts & or suggestions.

Thank you

 

[Retired shooter]

VV N540 just a little slower than Lever on the burn chart. Has anyone tried it .?

To all a great day.!

 

[Rob01]

Tried N140 with 110 in ARC and it was slow. Too slow. N540 might get you more velocity.

 

[Laurie]

VV N540 just a little slower than Lever on the burn chart. Has anyone tried it .?

N530 is a LOT faster burning than N140 and even more so N540. (Ignore burn rate charts and tables for most Viht powders as they're often thoroughly misleading.) N530 was the canister version of the bulk grade it developed decades ago for standard M193 pattern 55gn FMJBT 5.56X45mm NATO ball ammunition, making it a compatriot to the US St. Marks Powder Co. grade marketed as Hodgdon H335 in its civilian persona.

Here are the two grades tested in a long-throat match chamber 223 F-Class rifle under the 77gn SMK vs H. VGT and H4895 respectively.

N140 in here:

https://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856

and N530 in here:

https://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3956

As I said in an earlier post, the company has (apparently permanently) discontinued production of N530. It is a poor seller and has no production affinities with any of Viht's mainstream bulk grades it produces nowadays for military or commercial ammunition applications.

I can't comment on the 6ARC, but I had poor results in its parent 6.5mm Grendel with 120gn bullets although in theory they're a match made in heaven. Who knows, it might work in the ARC - it might also be fine-grained and dense enough to get a decent weight charge into the case before excessive charge compression arises.

 

[Retired shooter]

N530 is a LOT faster burning than N140 and even more so N540. (Ignore burn rate charts and tables for most Viht powders as they're often thoroughly misleading.) N530 was the canister version of the bulk grade it developed decades ago for standard M193 pattern 55gn FMJBT 5.56X45mm NATO ball ammunition, making it a compatriot to the US St. Marks Powder Co. grade marketed as Hodgdon H335 in its civilian persona.

Here are the two grades tested in a long-throat match chamber 223 F-Class rifle under the 77gn SMK vs H. VGT and H4895 respectively.

N140 in here:

https://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856

and N530 in here:

https://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3956

As I said in an earlier post, the company has (apparently permanently) discontinued production of N530. It is a poor seller and has no production affinities with any of Viht's mainstream bulk grades it produces nowadays for military or commercial ammunition applications.

I can't comment on the 6ARC, but I had poor results in its parent 6.5mm Grendel with 120gn bullets although in theory they're a match made in heaven. Who knows, it might work in the ARC - it might also be fine-grained and dense enough to get a decent weight charge into the case before excessive charge compression arises.

Laurie
Thank you Sir for the powder lesson.
Please correct me if I read your post incorrectly. We're you using the Vhit N530 in the 6.5 Grendel.?
Did your wwwtargetshooter.co UK version publish any info about Vhit N540.?
I wii be in contact with Vhit reps first of week trying to learn more. Your information is greatly appreciated, Thank you for sharing.!

I hope all is well on your side of the the big pond.!

 

[Mulligan]

I have shot a fair bit of N-530 in a 22 WalDog and a little bit in a PPC.
If your scared of 30+grains of 133 in your PPC, I wouldn't bother with 530.
In a WalDog, it gives you a gear you never dreamed of.
It will shoot, but to be competitive, I had to "reach for the stars".

I was half way through a barrel with it when the good folks at VV announced they were discontinuing N-530, so I put what I had on the back shelf and started testing other available powders.

Out here in the arid west, in addition to N-130, both of the LT powders work well in both a WalDog and PPC.
I should say that N-133 is still a favorite with some shooters out here when the RH goes up, otherwise, it is just a source of frustration for many of us.

CW

 

[Laurie]

Please correct me if I read your post incorrectly. We're you using the Vhit N530 in the 6.5 Grendel.?
Did your wwwtargetshooter.co UK version publish any info about Vhit N540.?
I wii be in contact with Vhit reps first of week trying to learn more. Your information is greatly appreciated, Thank you for sharing.!

Click on the first link I posted, and four Viht powders were tested in that episode in 223 as possible VarGet alternatives - N140, 540, 150, and 550. (The VGT baseline test report is in earlier member of the 'Reach-Out' series.)

'Reach-Out' comes from from our losing all IMR powders bar the Endurons, (also since gone of course), and most Hodgdon products including all of the Australian ADI manufactured tubular grades three or so years ago as a result of an EU environmental / health & safety initiative called REACH.

Yes, I tried N530 in 6.5 Grendel having seen it recommended for the cartridge as having ideal characteristics - ie tubular, high-density, for the small case, high-energy, and the right burn rate. It simply didn't work for me - poor groups and very large (50-80) ES values in a Howa Oryx factory rifle. (N133 is my usual powder in this one and far superior, albeit MVs are lower than those many of the ball powders are said to achieve.)

My 530 in both Grendel and 223 used the dregs of a 1kg bottle I bought many years ago, for what original purpose I cannot now remember. Over the years I tried it in many likely applications, but only had good results in one and not an obvious one at that - 243 Win with the 70gn SMK. Despite being on the face of it a far too fast burner and with charges leaving oodles of airspace above the powder column, it shot the smallest 100 yard groups I could wring out of an old ex UK Police P-H M87 sniper/marksman rifle.

I know of no UK match/precision shooters who have N530 pet-loads and we've used Viht powders here for over 40 years. Click on Viht's info link for the powder and count the cartridges in the list of those Viht publishes loads data for - it's a short list compared to any other mainstream propellant in the company's range. I would think it might have a following in 12-twist barrel 223 fox and other predator shooters here as it gives acceptable precision with 50-65gn bullets allied to very high MVs. It might work in 204 Ruger and the smaller case 20s with 30/32gn bullets too.

 

[SD guy]

So I am getting the impression that N530 may not come highly recommended for the 6mm ARC. How about any other VV offerings pushing projectiles in the 90 all copper class or the 103 ish grain offerings? I am guessing if we want velocity in the 6mm ARC we will need to sacrifice some temp stability & work w a ball powder.

 

[Retired shooter]

Click on the first link I posted, and four Viht powders were tested in that episode in 223 as possible VarGet alternatives - N140, 540, 150, and 550. (The VGT baseline test report is in earlier member of the 'Reach-Out' series.)

'Reach-Out' comes from from our losing all IMR powders bar the Endurons, (also since gone of course), and most Hodgdon products including all of the Australian ADI manufactured tubular grades three or so years ago as a result of an EU environmental / health & safety initiative called REACH.

Yes, I tried N530 in 6.5 Grendel having seen it recommended for the cartridge as having ideal characteristics - ie tubular, high-density, for the small case, high-energy, and the right burn rate. It simply didn't work for me - poor groups and very large (50-80) ES values in a Howa Oryx factory rifle. (N133 is my usual powder in this one and far superior, albeit MVs are lower than those many of the ball powders are said to achieve.)

My 530 in both Grendel and 223 used the dregs of a 1kg bottle I bought many years ago, for what original purpose I cannot now remember. Over the years I tried it in many likely applications, but only had good results in one and not an obvious one at that - 243 Win with the 70gn SMK. Despite being on the face of it a far too fast burner and with charges leaving oodles of airspace above the powder column, it shot the smallest 100 yard groups I could wring out of an old ex UK Police P-H M87 sniper/marksman rifle.

I know of no UK match/precision shooters who have N530 pet-loads and we've used Viht powders here for over 40 years. Click on Viht's info link for the powder and count the cartridges in the list of those Viht publishes loads data for - it's a short list compared to any other mainstream propellant in the company's range. I would think it might have a following in 12-twist barrel 223 fox and other predator shooters here as it gives acceptable precision with 50-65gn bullets allied to very high MVs. It might work in 204 Ruger and the smaller case 20s with 30/32gn bullets too.

Once again
Thank you Sir!

 

[Darkside]

I've made almost a complete switch over to Vv powders in the last 2 years.
And it has worked very well for me.
Nothing under N-140/540
Been burning a lot of N- 555, 560, 565, 568, 570. Performance has been good.

 

[JSH]

Did a bit more search and study. I shot a bit of 135 years ago, and it kind of dried up, pre internet.
VV135 looks pretty versatile across the board for 204/223 through 6BR. I didn’t see any negative on it like I do on 133.
What are you using N-135 in?

Benchrest buddy gave me some of his 135 “siftings” large kernels, yes he sifted it doing some testing. I used some in my 6BR and it is a bit slow compared to a partial jug.

 

[Retired shooter]

I've made almost a complete switch over to Vv powders in the last 2 years.
And it has worked very well for me.
Nothing under N-140/540
Been burning a lot of N- 555, 560, 565, 568, 570. Performance has been good.

More info please. What caliber, what weight bullet, what type shooting etc.
Thank you.

 

[KMW 1954]

Been following along and absorbing as much as is relevant to my shooting.

I have 2lbs of 135 that I purchased as it was on sale and had been reading that it works well with heavier weight 223 loads. Then right after acquiring it I received a bolt action 6ARC and could not find any published loads for it so I contacted them.

They were honest and straight forward in stating at this time they have no data for the ARC and it is unlikely they will any time soon. They also did not recommend the 135 for the 6mm because they feel it is too slow and will over pressure before it reaches velocity.

So that is my motivation for following.

 

[Laurie]

For those looking for 6ARC data, there was an interesting feature in Handloader magazine c. 3 years ago by Patrick Meitin. He loaded ammo and carried out tests in two rifles: an 18-inch barrel AR15 type, and a 26-inch barrel Masterpiece Arms Matrix Chassis bolt-rifle. Quite a few combinations tested and best powders in each reported on. Not a single Viht grade though sadly! Still worth reading by anybody getting a 6ARC or contemplating getting one (as I was for a while, but now leaning towards the larger 6mm GT for F-Class use). Available free here:

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/6mm-arc

For those looking at Viht N135, it was my standard powder for 68-73s in my days with a very accurate UK-legal manual (side-handle straight-pull) AR15 in 223. At magazine length, charges are horribly compressed though - you can feel the crunching of kernels through the press handle and hear it clearly too. It's a bulky powder, lower density than N140. for instance. I don't think the 6ARC will have nearly enough room in the case at SAAMI COALs to get a full-pressure load in, even with heavy charge compression.

Many people on the forum are either contemplating or trying N135 in 223 with 80gn class bullets and 6BR with 95-109s. Glen Zediker in his book on the competition AR15 and loading for it (for XTC), notes that when Viht powders first appeared in the US, many XTC shooters adopted it for 69s, 77s and especially the seated out 80 SMK and similar for the 600 yard slowfire stage, but dropped it and switched to N140 for 80s as it was less 'peaky' under that bullet weight than its faster burning stablemate. That ties in with my 223 experience with 80s too. Likewise, I didn't get N135 to work well for me in the 6BR with 95s and up. (However, many on the forum report good results from it. As always, it's a case of YMMV.) For those looking at Viht powders in the BR with 105s to 108s, counter-intuitive as it seems, the favourite UK 6BR match load powder for these bullets is N150. This looks way too slow on burn rate charts, but they lie. The alternative here in the UK to this powder which some prefer, is N140 or 540, but never N135.

(We gave up on VarGet here years ago in such applications even before the dastardly EU REACH ban, basically because you couldn't get it >90% of the time, and when it did turn up, shops limited it to a pound or two per customer, and it still sold out in less than a week! You could never find / buy enough for a season's competition with a 6BR never mind for 308 FTR and similar, and could never get a decent collection of a single production lot.)

If modelling applications in QuickLOAD, beware! IME, N135 produces considerably higher pressures and MVs than QL (including the current v.3.9) calculates against charge weight, so the program overstates usable / safe maximum loads by a considerable degree.

 

[Bill Norris]

For those looking for 6ARC data, there was an interesting feature in Handloader magazine c. 3 years ago by Patrick Meitin. He loaded ammo and carried out tests in two rifles: an 18-inch barrel AR15 type, and a 26-inch barrel Masterpiece Arms Matrix Chassis bolt-rifle. Quite a few combinations tested and best powders in each reported on. Not a single Viht grade though sadly! Still worth reading by anybody getting a 6ARC or contemplating getting one (as I was for a while, but now leaning towards the larger 6mm GT for F-Class use). Available free here:

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/6mm-arc

For those looking at Viht N135, it was my standard powder for 68-73s in my days with a very accurate UK-legal manual (side-handle straight-pull) AR15 in 223. At magazine length, charges are horribly compressed though - you can feel the crunching of kernels through the press handle and hear it clearly too. It's a bulky powder, lower density than N140. for instance. I don't think the 6ARC will have nearly enough room in the case at SAAMI COALs to get a full-pressure load in, even with heavy charge compression.

Many people on the forum are either contemplating or trying N135 in 223 with 80gn class bullets and 6BR with 95-109s. Glen Zediker in his book on the competition AR15 and loading for it (for XTC), notes that when Viht powders first appeared in the US, many XTC shooters adopted it for 69s, 77s and especially the seated out 80 SMK and similar for the 600 yard slowfire stage, but dropped it and switched to N140 for 80s as it was less 'peaky' under that bullet weight than its faster burning stablemate. That ties in with my 223 experience with 80s too. Likewise, I didn't get N135 to work well for me in the 6BR with 95s and up. (However, many on the forum report good results from it. As always, it's a case of YMMV.) For those looking at Viht powders in the BR with 105s to 108s, counter-intuitive as it seems, the favourite UK 6BR match load powder for these bullets is N150. This looks way too slow on burn rate charts, but they lie. The alternative here in the UK to this powder which some prefer, is N140 or 540, but never N135.

(We gave up on VarGet here years ago in such applications even before the dastardly EU REACH ban, basically because you couldn't get it >90% of the time, and when it did turn up, shops limited it to a pound or two per customer, and it still sold out in less than a week! You could never find / buy enough for a season's competition with a 6BR never mind for 308 FTR and similar, and could never get a decent collection of a single production lot.)

If modelling applications in QuickLOAD, beware! IME, N135 produces considerably higher pressures and MVs than QL (including the current v.3.9) calculates against charge weight, so the program overstates usable / safe maximum loads by a considerable degree.

N135 will work well in 308 but I found it to be hotter than some data suggest with the 155 gr. class bullets.

 

[Laurie]

N135 will work well in 308 but I found it to be hotter than some data suggest with the 155 gr. class bullets.

Yes, it was designed as Viht's bulk powder offering to ammunition manufacturers loading the original 7.62 NATO ball cartridge (mostly 147gn bullets in European versions). A case-full in a heavy / lo-cap 7.62 mil case nicely met NATO's 2,800 fps MV standard in a 21/22-inch barrel with in-spec port pressures. That makes it a tad fast burning in 308 with 155s, but great with 150s.

Most UK 'TR' (Fullbore / Palma sling using) shooters prefer N140 with 155s, or the very similar burn-rate Reload Swiss RS50 from Nitrochemie Wimmis.

 

[Leeman]

So I am getting the impression that N530 may not come highly recommended for the 6mm ARC. How about any other VV offerings pushing projectiles in the 90 all copper class or the 103 ish grain offerings? I am guessing if we want velocity in the 6mm ARC we will need to sacrifice some temp stability & work w a ball powder.

I've been using Vit N540 in a fast twist 6PPC with 90grain and 105 class bullets with excellent results. I would think it should work equally well in the 6ARC. I'm using Lapua 220 Russian cases and Murom small magnum primers AKA Wolf primers.

 

[Rob01]

I've been using Vit N540 in a fast twist 6PPC with 90grain and 105 class bullets with excellent results. I would think it should work equally well in the 6ARC. I'm using Lapua 220 Russian cases and Murom small magnum primers AKA Wolf primers.

What velocity with 105s?

 

[Leeman]

What velocity with 105s?

From 2750fps up to 2860fps with the 107SMK, 2850fps with Berger 105VLD hunting, but I consider those upper speeds too hot to be honest, accuracy was far better at just under 2800fps.

The 90 Scenar was happiest humming along at 3075fps ave.

That's with a 26.5" Kreiger barrel.

 

[Rob01]

From 2750fps up to 2860fps with the 107SMK, 2850fps with Berger 105VLD hunting, but I consider those upper speeds too hot to be honest, accuracy was far better at just under 2800fps.

The 90 Scenar was happiest humming along at 3075fps ave.

That's with a 26.5" Kreiger barrel.

I am just looking for the 2750-2800fps area with the ARC in my 26" bolt gun with 110 ATips. Maybe I'll pic up a pound of N540 and try it.