No, what you have there is your opinion of what's enough "technology".Right!
What you are seeing here is the problem with over addressing the solution with technology. . . .
Turn Your FX-120i into a Prometheus
- Thread starter Sheldon N
- Start date
muleystalker
Silver $$ Contributor
What do you guys think about adapting it to this hornady powder trickler ? It has a nice heavy cast steel base and already has sealed bearings on both ends of the tube. Its base hight is adjustable and has a large capacity.
Click for pic hornady powder trickler
Click for pic hornady powder trickler
muleystalker
Silver $$ Contributor
True, the taller powder pan did solve one problem (splashout) but created another (it's now difficult to take a little powder back out if it slightly overcharges.)
However, given the speed of the system (especially once it's integrated and automatically cycles), in the event of an overcharge it will probably be faster to dump the overcharge, put a fresh pan on, and let the system do it over rather than scooping a little bit of powder out to let the system re-trickle up to final weight.
I experimented last night with putting a 0.250" ID reducer on the end of the drop chute. The powder backs up behind the outlet reducer and "hourglasses" out more slowly at a lower velocity which further minimizes splashing and would allow the use of a receptacle with shorter sides that would be easier to scoop overcharges out of. With the 0.250 outlet baffle I bet a shorter sided 1.5oz stainless sauce cup would work, but the exiting powder still isn't slow enough for your typical reloading shallow powder pan. Slowing the powder down does add time to the drop cycle too. It is possible to get the powder slow enough not to splash out of a standard powder pan, a few pages back someone posted a video of a ribbed & baffled chute that someone made which dispensed into your typical low profile powder pan without any splash or spill. A baffled powder chute to allow use of a standard powder pan could be 3D printed very inexpensively... but I'd need to buy a 3D printer first. Just what I need, more toys. I mean tools. Need to watch that terminology.
You need to send it into a flatter squared angled tube with a couple of stepped drops, think of the water baffles at the spillway of a Dam,when they let out water, it will take away some of the velocity of the falling powder and it will flow out as slick as melted butter.
\_
Like so but multiple steps, I saw one a guy made worked great. It was about 1/2" widened about 1/8" tall on the opening .
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wolfman
Silver $$ Contributor
How about incorporating one of these into a system...
http://www.quick-measure.com/index.htm
http://www.quick-measure.com/index.htm
Looked into one. The Hornady would work; it already has bearings, just need a motor mount and a pulley. The larger capacity hopper is nice. The cost is just a little bit high for a trickler. The RCBS trickler works great especially with the bearing mod and its hopper capacity, while small, is sufficient for many charges provided the initial bulk charge is close to the final charge.
About 8 pages ago in this thread someone posted a youtube video of a stepped powder drop chute using exactly that concept, and it worked very well to drop even ball powder into a standard pan without spilling. Right now I'm pretty satisfied with the current drop chute arrangement and using the taller shot glasses-- but when I buy a 3D printer I'll start experimenting with different baffle arrangements to allow use of a lower sided pan. However, if the system only rarely overthrows the shot glass will be fine and a standard pan to allow easier "dipping" of overcharges really won't be needed unless I'm bored and want another project... not like that ever happens.
Looked into one of those for the "production" version of the bulk thrower but some drive linkage will be required and the Quick Measure by itself exceeds the target price of the entire system that we had in mind. Developing a solution with a basically unlimited budget is a *lot* easier than coming up with a solution with a reasonable price target in mind.
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OK, I think I'm where I want to be with this:
Thanks to Adam M. for his automated scale solution and Kiba for his little upgrades to improve smoothness (bearings) and efficiency (idea for drop tube directly into pan on scale).
I located a set of (stainless? Not sure but they stick to a magnet) 6 votive candle molds at Hobby Lobby this morning. With the aid of a fine file I got two to weigh the same to nearest milligram. They work great with my improvised copper drop tube fitted to my Harrel's measure in its regular place, clampd to a shelf above my reloading bench.
Thanks to Adam M. for his automated scale solution and Kiba for his little upgrades to improve smoothness (bearings) and efficiency (idea for drop tube directly into pan on scale).
I located a set of (stainless? Not sure but they stick to a magnet) 6 votive candle molds at Hobby Lobby this morning. With the aid of a fine file I got two to weigh the same to nearest milligram. They work great with my improvised copper drop tube fitted to my Harrel's measure in its regular place, clampd to a shelf above my reloading bench.
muleystalker
Silver $$ Contributor
Kiba, I have the Hornandy licl-n-load trickier sitting in my bench, I bought it to make a motorized manual button/infra red eye (like the Omega) trickier for use with a beam scale. But when I saw this unit I thought this trickier would make a a great match for it especially if you're interested in throwing the full charge with it. It already has the bearings but also already has the means/ gears for two different rates of speed installed that you can drive from. My problem is I'm not that savvy with all the Arduino/computer Stuff.
Do you think it would work to buy the above unit and change tricklers? i would even be willing to lend mine out to be the test trickier.lol
Do you think it would work to buy the above unit and change tricklers? i would even be willing to lend mine out to be the test trickier.lol
For those looking for an embarassingly low tech way to increase the RCBS hopper capacity...
I would snug the clamp a bit just to be certain it doesn't slide down and use some static guard, but for $4 it works! Fernco makes some sizes of these fittings in white wich would spruce things up a bit, but none were available at my Menards store.
My barrels come back from the smith in a couple days so I will finaly get to do some load development and give Adam's design a good workout.
-Eric
I would snug the clamp a bit just to be certain it doesn't slide down and use some static guard, but for $4 it works! Fernco makes some sizes of these fittings in white wich would spruce things up a bit, but none were available at my Menards store.
My barrels come back from the smith in a couple days so I will finaly get to do some load development and give Adam's design a good workout.
-Eric
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At that point you'd basically have an RCBS chargemaster, but with much higher accuracy. That's not a bad thing as it's a really simple device with only one motor and one moving part (the trickler shaft.)
It *may* work with Adam's electronics as is without modifications simply by playing with the pulley ratio. Keep in mind though, too low of a ratio (too many turns of the trickler shaft vs turns of the stepper motor) and it will dispense the bulk charge quickly but won't have sufficient resolution at the end to kick out those last few kernels with any precision. Too high of a ratio (not enough turns of the trickler shaft vs turns of the stepper) and the trickler will be painfully slow to dispense the bulk charge but have ample resolution at the end to precisely spit out those last few kernels.
If pulley ratios alone can't tune the system you might have to tweak the code for ramp up / max rpm / ramp down, maybe get a different stepper, etc. One of those things you'd have to experiment with.
muleystalker
Silver $$ Contributor
What would be nice is to put 2 stepper motors, one driving the top finger nob/gear for the fast bulk of the load and one driving the bottom nob/gear, which is the fine trickle, to finish off the load. It is already set up as a two speed trickier.
It wouldn't even be that bad set up as a manual button controlled version with two stepper motors, kind of like the omega but then you could use it to dump the whole load.
Haha awesome. My new trickler will have a larger hopper. Not that big though.
What happens if you put the empty pan, wait for the trickler to start running from zero, and then pull the handle. I expect it should be a bit faster since the trickler can keep running throughout and after the drop.
Adam that's essentially what I do now! That video was taken just after I got the rig set up. With proper tuning of the drop volume - it can't be too close to target -there's time to wait for your trickler to ramp up. Less volume dropped = more time for trickler to run.
Another trick's plugging the trickler tube hole w/epoxy after positioning a new one nearer the discharge end. Makes for much easier clean-up after a charging session. Wrap a piece of baggie around a folded & twisted pipe cleaner then jam the covered end into the pipe from the discharge end far enough just to leave original hole exposed. Add epoxy, let that cure, then pull the pipe cleaner plug out.
Another trick's plugging the trickler tube hole w/epoxy after positioning a new one nearer the discharge end. Makes for much easier clean-up after a charging session. Wrap a piece of baggie around a folded & twisted pipe cleaner then jam the covered end into the pipe from the discharge end far enough just to leave original hole exposed. Add epoxy, let that cure, then pull the pipe cleaner plug out.
Question from a "process speed" point of view... Is creating an automated drop system actually going to result in faster cycle time from case to case?
Just looking at the video of the trickler in action, it seems to me that there are three major time consuming components to the whole operation:
1) The time required for the trickler... think, start, run, trickle, finish.
2) The time required for getting the pan in and out from under the trickler.
3) The time required for the user to move a funnel, dump the powder into an empty case, then put the pan back.
Steps 1 and 3 can take place at the same time, so the biggest time savings potential is running a two pan system where you immediately swap in a new pan when pulling a full pan. That requires some dexterity, and potentially adds a little time to step 2 since you are pulling and resetting a pan at the same time.
The auto-drop system doesn't really change the dynamic of steps 1 and 3, it just puts the initial charging process into the middle of step 1 (potentially extending step 1 if you don't get the drop timed/weighed correctly). If you were fast enough with your hands that you could move funnel, dump powder into case, and manually drop a new charge into the pan... and be done in time ready to swap pans by the time the trickler finished, I think you'd have hit the maximum potential cycle speed of the system since steps 1 and 3 would be equal in time and running simultaneously.
However if you weren't as fast as the trickler, moving the dump charge step into Step 1 with an auto drop might improve cycle time since the time consumed in Step 1 and Step 3 would be in equilibrium. Of course this still requires a two pan system for optimum speed.
Just looking at the video of the trickler in action, it seems to me that there are three major time consuming components to the whole operation:
1) The time required for the trickler... think, start, run, trickle, finish.
2) The time required for getting the pan in and out from under the trickler.
3) The time required for the user to move a funnel, dump the powder into an empty case, then put the pan back.
Steps 1 and 3 can take place at the same time, so the biggest time savings potential is running a two pan system where you immediately swap in a new pan when pulling a full pan. That requires some dexterity, and potentially adds a little time to step 2 since you are pulling and resetting a pan at the same time.
The auto-drop system doesn't really change the dynamic of steps 1 and 3, it just puts the initial charging process into the middle of step 1 (potentially extending step 1 if you don't get the drop timed/weighed correctly). If you were fast enough with your hands that you could move funnel, dump powder into case, and manually drop a new charge into the pan... and be done in time ready to swap pans by the time the trickler finished, I think you'd have hit the maximum potential cycle speed of the system since steps 1 and 3 would be equal in time and running simultaneously.
However if you weren't as fast as the trickler, moving the dump charge step into Step 1 with an auto drop might improve cycle time since the time consumed in Step 1 and Step 3 would be in equilibrium. Of course this still requires a two pan system for optimum speed.
More thoughts on the topic of process speed, and a potential idea...
The fastest system I've seen is dual Prometheus set up next to a press for seating bullets. The user would grab an empty empty case, drop a charge from the Prometheus straight into the case, seat a bullet, then grab another case and start over. The bullet seating was faster than the Prometheus could weigh the charge so two were used in alternating rotation with the same charge weight.
It would be cool to move this auto-trickler towards a system where you could dump the powder straight into the case without needing to move pans and swap funnels, etc. I was thinking about a potential idea on these lines:
Instead of a powder pan that you removed each time, what about a small, lightweight tipping pan assembly that could stay on the scale? Imagine a tiny dump truck bed, maybe something as simple as an axle on each side of a powder pan, set for the proper balance point. Then construct a small chute that the powder could go down on the side of the scale into a drop tube that charged a case? When the trickler finishes, just tip the pan with one hand while holding the case under the drop tube with the other hand and charge straight into the case. Then you could seat a bullet while the trickler worked up the next charge.
Or... perhaps a much simpler idea. Fabricate a funnel holder to act as your drop tube.
It would need to mount the funnel suspended in the air perhaps six inches above the workbench so you could move a case in and out from underneath. It would need to be rigid so you could push up or down on it without moving the funnel. Something like a Lee powder measure stand with a Saturn funnel epoxied onto it. You would grab an empty case with one hand and push it up underneath the mouth of the funnel. Then with your other hand you grab the finished powder charge off the scale, dump it in the top of the funnel into the case, then replace it back on the trickler to be filled with a fresh charge of powder. Then since you have the full case in your hand already, just put a bullet in it and seat it on the press while the trickler finishes the next charge.
This system combined with the auto drop that Kiba made would be very quick indeed. And the fact that you would be filling the "dead time" with the bullet seating operation would totally negate the need to run a dual pan system on the trickler.
The fastest system I've seen is dual Prometheus set up next to a press for seating bullets. The user would grab an empty empty case, drop a charge from the Prometheus straight into the case, seat a bullet, then grab another case and start over. The bullet seating was faster than the Prometheus could weigh the charge so two were used in alternating rotation with the same charge weight.
It would be cool to move this auto-trickler towards a system where you could dump the powder straight into the case without needing to move pans and swap funnels, etc. I was thinking about a potential idea on these lines:
Instead of a powder pan that you removed each time, what about a small, lightweight tipping pan assembly that could stay on the scale? Imagine a tiny dump truck bed, maybe something as simple as an axle on each side of a powder pan, set for the proper balance point. Then construct a small chute that the powder could go down on the side of the scale into a drop tube that charged a case? When the trickler finishes, just tip the pan with one hand while holding the case under the drop tube with the other hand and charge straight into the case. Then you could seat a bullet while the trickler worked up the next charge.
Or... perhaps a much simpler idea. Fabricate a funnel holder to act as your drop tube.
It would need to mount the funnel suspended in the air perhaps six inches above the workbench so you could move a case in and out from underneath. It would need to be rigid so you could push up or down on it without moving the funnel. Something like a Lee powder measure stand with a Saturn funnel epoxied onto it. You would grab an empty case with one hand and push it up underneath the mouth of the funnel. Then with your other hand you grab the finished powder charge off the scale, dump it in the top of the funnel into the case, then replace it back on the trickler to be filled with a fresh charge of powder. Then since you have the full case in your hand already, just put a bullet in it and seat it on the press while the trickler finishes the next charge.
This system combined with the auto drop that Kiba made would be very quick indeed. And the fact that you would be filling the "dead time" with the bullet seating operation would totally negate the need to run a dual pan system on the trickler.
Sheldon, I think you're onto the start of a great idea.
I've been thinking how to minimize the "handling time" of moving two pans around and how get the powder into the case with less hand movement along the lines of the Prometheus with the auto-dumping funnel.
A tipping powder pan that dumps the charge into a short chute leading directly to a case funnel would be fast.
Taking a cue from the Prometheus, I could hang the front of the storage cube off the edge of the workbench and have the funnel poking out the bottom of the storage cube. Place a case under the funnel, tip the pan, done.
Now, for the next step... you could automatically tip the powder pan with a motorized hook suspended under the lip of the tipping powder pan. Normally the hook would not touch the pan and affect the weight the scale sees, but when you're ready to dump the hook could cycle upwards, grabbing the lip to tip and dump the pan into the chute/funnel/case, and then lowers the pan back onto the scale ready for the next charge.
The tipping mechanism could be cycled manually via pushbutton or automatically via an optical switch at the tip of the funnel so it dumps the pan when the case neck is presented to the funnel. Could even put it on a microswitch so you have to lightly press upwards on the funnel ensuring the case is seated into the funnel to avoid any spills. Charge dumps into the case automatically, pan returns to the home position, the scale sees zero again, the powder measure and trickler do their thing, seat the bullet in the case you just charged, repeat.
Another benefit to this approach is since everything at that point will be self contained inside the storage cube you could put a lexan cover over the front to seal it off and block out all influence from drafts.
Of course the combined weight of the pan, tipping holder, and your maximum charge weight all has to come in under the maximum 120 gram capacity of the FX-120i, so building it light will be a must.
I think I can make this happen.
First thing to do though is get my measure integrated with Adam's trickler to cycle automatically, then I'll start figuring out the automatic dumping pan / chute / funnel arrangement.
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