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Tuners

I believe you are right, Although each round was progressively heating up in that case of the last group I posted.
Each shot showed to be climbing.
That 3rd highest shot SHOULD have been a slight increase in velocity due to temp
I mainly wanted to just see how wacky things would go if I left a round in the chamber with the bolt closed
(As if waiting for a shot that might happen any second so you dont chance even having the bolt lifted because that split second is too long)
Any other time I would not leave a Round cooking in the hot chamber that amount of time.
I liked the test results at that short range but need to repeat the same again at longer range
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So....... more testing with a Tuner will come this season
I wonder if it will tune out vertical from leaving a round in the chamber?
That would be cool!
I just don't let a round cook for more than a few seconds, typically. Powder being a cellulose product, it's a decent insulator, so doesn't change super fast. I think that's why I don't see tune change so much, if any, due to bbl temp but rather, ambient, as the powder has time to change.

You and others have touched on station pressure as well as temps so I'll add what I've been able to observe a bit.

First thing is, smokeless powder turning from a solid into a gas is a chemical reaction and all chemical reactions are temp dependent.
The other thing is that air pressure very much appears to have an offsetting affect on tune as opposed to temp. Which very well may explain why identical temp changes from day to day...one day the tune clearly goes away but the next, it seems to hold tune very well. Pressure and temp are related but they don't always change linearly and the same from day to day, for example. I've seen this both ways many times but the first was in tornadic conditions where temp was stable but tune left, badly and I struggled to find it moving the tuner the way I "thought" based on temp and group shapes. Something to keep in mind is all. But the key to keeping a gun in tune is generally group shape. I can't emphasize that enough. Shooting in a tornado or a hurricane, where the air pressure just plummets, does seem to change the direction you would need to go, be it tuner, seating or powder, though. I've tested this three times and it seemed to hold true. Tough conditions to replicate, fortunately.
 
I just don't let a round cook for more than a few seconds, typically. Powder being a cellulose product, it's a decent insulator, so doesn't change super fast. I think that's why I don't see tune change so much, if any, due to bbl temp but rather, ambient, as the powder has time to change.

You and others have touched on station pressure as well as temps so I'll add what I've been able to observe a bit.

First thing is, smokeless powder turning from a solid into a gas is a chemical reaction and all chemical reactions are temp dependent.
The other thing is that air pressure very much appears to have an offsetting affect on tune as opposed to temp. Which very well may explain why identical temp changes from day to day...one day the tune clearly goes away but the next, it seems to hold tune very well. Pressure and temp are related but they don't always change linearly and the same from day to day, for example. I've seen this both ways many times but the first was in tornadic conditions where temp was stable but tune left, badly and I struggled to find it moving the tuner the way I "thought" based on temp and group shapes. Something to keep in mind is all. But the key to keeping a gun in tune is generally group shape. I can't emphasize that enough. Shooting in a tornado or a hurricane, where the air pressure just plummets, does seem to change the direction you would need to go, be it tuner, seating or powder, though. I've tested this three times and it seemed to hold true. Tough conditions to replicate, fortunately.
Lol the worst I've ever encountered is shooting in 18 Mph wind.
I had to dial in 2 full Mils for windge and was back on
Calif has it's advantages.
I would not know what to do in pre tornado weather.
 
Storm conditions don't have to be present where you are for the pressure to drop, just in the area. I've shot matches the day before a big storm and the pressure was already falling and continued to do so throughout the day, but was otherwise overcast and pleasant.

Regarding Bryan's testing, yes for his rifle and tune in his location station pressure was the first factor he looked at but also had data on temperature.

Getting the barrel hot like we do in F/class with 20 shot strings, letting a round cook is not a good idea, however one thing some don't test is what happens after you let the barrel cool a few minutes then shoot. Mine will shoot low after sitting for a few minutes then go right back.
 
I've yet to see anyone who "debunks" tuners actually test them in the way that people in the know use them, or the way the manufacturer says to use them. They don't believe they work, so they do crap testing to confirm what they want to find. I expect this from Hornady. I'm disappointed that Litz went this route.
If I am not mistaken, Litz said that he could not repeat the results in his setup, not that they would not work for anyone. Anything that changes barrel harmonics will affect bullet flight and impact on target. That’s just basic physics. Finding a repeatable process is the trick. I use them but I am not messing with them during a match.
 
If I am not mistaken, Litz said that he could not repeat the results in his setup, not that they would not work for anyone. Anything that changes barrel harmonics will affect bullet flight and impact on target. That’s just basic physics. Finding a repeatable process is the trick. I use them but I am not messing with them during a match.

I relistened to the Hornady podcast a few days ago and they largely said the same thing....they didn't find anything repeatable but they didn't say they don't work full stop. Really that's all any scientific research can do, report the procedures and results and leave it at that. The goal of science is to objectively measure and quantify things, not to validate our beliefs. Sometimes experiments support our beliefs, sometimes they don’t, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.
 
I relistened to the Hornady podcast a few days ago and they largely said the same thing....they didn't find anything repeatable but they didn't say they don't work full stop. Really that's all any scientific research can do, report the procedures and results and leave it at that. The goal of science is to objectively measure and quantify things, not to validate our beliefs. Sometimes experiments support our beliefs, sometimes they don’t, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

So you are saying “trust the science”? Lol
 
I relistened to the Hornady podcast a few days ago and they largely said the same thing....they didn't find anything repeatable but they didn't say they don't work full stop. Really that's all any scientific research can do, report the procedures and results and leave it at that. The goal of science is to objectively measure and quantify things, not to validate our beliefs. Sometimes experiments support our beliefs, sometimes they don’t, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.
Simply put, they moved their tuner randomly, expecting predictable and repeatable results. I use the word randomly because unless you know an expected result from changing, well, anything...it's just guessing, or random. Knowing how much to move at a time to get predictable results comes from testing that should've been done prior to their published test. It boils down to GIGO.
 
So you are saying “trust the science”? lol

Haha I hear what you’re saying my friend :D

I don’t mean the politicized version of “science” just the scientific process in general. I read research literature all the time in another field, one group does a study, another builds off that, and another builds off of that and over time conclusions are based on a body of evidence. That’s why I don’t worry about any one study, as the old saying goes, “ time will tell”
 
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I trust my own science and testing. I don’t take someone’s tests that don’t go like they think and then all of a sudden my experience that shows them working is all wrong because of their test. I know what works for me and why I use it.
Smart man. Time and time again we all find it best to test our own stuff to find out what works best for us. Everyone's rifle, load, tuner, bench manners & conditions will all be different.
 
I had a Ruger # 1 I put a very small plate on barrel. then up thru the forearm a small bolt + 0r - pressure on plate worked great. thing shot great. early runner. beak
 
Honestly, this thread has been more complete with ideas, theories, and contrary opinions than many others on here.

Some top F/Class shooters actively avoid them, while others say if you dont use one you're getting beat by one. That's the game I play.

I have always been in the camp of no tuner, but this new build I decided to try one and diving head first into theory, practice and testing methods to see for myself if the juice is worth the squeeze. Excited to explore the possibilities and see where this leads me.
 
Hard YES!
everything is theoretical, until empirically tested with our own equipment
There is no reason that the design of a barrel/tuner combination could not be calculated and optimized, but it does not appear any business has the funds to finance the research to gain sufficient understanding. Our backyard science projects only go so far and have typically led to more debate than concensus.
 

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