Tuners

[BenPerfected]

Just did a Forum Search for "Tuners" and only two post have been made since 2007....this post will be #3 8)....see I am getting trained to search before I post! It is well documented that the Harrell/Hoehn Tuner works so well in Rimfire BR that these type tuners are used on virtually every RFBR gun.
It is also seems clear that the most CF shooters only use the load to tune the barrel/gun. What is surprising that virtually no one seems to be testing or discussing what impact a barrel device might add to CF accuracy.
Ben

 

[mr45man]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?action=search2
Try here.
John H.

 

[normmatzen]

I have been using barrel tuners on both of my long range bench rest/ F Class guns for over 2 years.
I have concluded that you have 2 choices; 1. Tune your load carefully and use up the barrel finding the correct powder, powder load, bullet set-back, etc. Or, 1. load a "typical" load and adjust your tuner from forward as far as possible, back in 1/20th turn increments till a sine wave of groups can be plotted ( probably about 1/3 to 1/4 turn total.). Then tweek in 1/40th steps around the best groups with 1/20th turn.
The groups should be 3 shot groups with 3 different loads, typical and + and - 1%. You will only need to do this at about 200 yds, but may need more than one group per adjustment based on shape of curve of group size vs tuner position.
Step 3, start competing! With a proper tune, you can almost forget about ambient temp, and distance.

 

[BenPerfected]

I have been using barrel tuners on both of my long range bench rest/ F Class guns for over 2 years.
I have concluded that you have 2 choices; 1. Tune your load carefully and use up the barrel finding the correct powder, powder load, bullet set-back, etc. Or, 1. load a "typical" load and adjust your tuner from forward as far as possible, back in 1/20th turn increments till a sine wave of groups can be plotted ( probably about 1/3 to 1/4 turn total.). Then tweek in 1/40th steps around the best groups with 1/20th turn.
The groups should be 3 shot groups with 3 different loads, typical and + and - 1%. You will only need to do this at about 200 yds, but may need more than one group per adjustment based on shape of curve of group size vs tuner position.
Step 3, start competing! With a proper tune, you can almost forget about ambient temp, and distance.

Norm, thanks for the feedback. The barrel may be getting worn out but I am close behind. It would be good to start practicing more; however, polishing on my reloading stills has been a fun and is obviously very important.
Which tuner do you use and where do you buy? If it is a Harrell, I already have a boat load. Would a threaded tuner with an integral muzzle break be good combination in CF?
Ben

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Just did a Forum Search for "Tuners" and only two post have been made since 2007....this post will be #3 8) ....see I am getting trained to search before I post! It is well documented that the Harrell/Hoehn Tuner works so well in Rimfire BR that these type tuners are used on virtually every RFBR gun.
It is also seems clear that the most CF shooters only use the load to tune the barrel/gun. What is surprising that virtually no one seems to be testing or discussing what impact a barrel device might add to CF accuracy.
Ben

Ben, there have been several posts related to tuners since way back then...I've posted some, as have others.


I can say this with a whole lot of certainty. First, the load has to be a good one in that rifle, be it rimfire or centerfire. Second, is that if the load is good, a tuner will get the best out of that load, that it has to offer, in any conditions I've tested in, again, be it rf or cf.


There's a lot of voodoo about tuning on the forums, but what I just said has remained true in EVERY instance.


Lots of rf shooters swear by never moving a tuner, once tuned...but they bring different lots of ammo for different conditions, and in some cases, even different rifles. Why is this, if a single tuner setting works all of the time? Why would rf differ from cf?
My answers are, it doesn't and it doesn't.


What happens when we turn a tuner? I can tell you, it's the same, be it rf or cf. Tuners don't tune ammo to guns. They tune guns to the ammo in a given condition based on internal ballistics and atmospheric conditions. They don't have any effect on ammo....so what changes when conditions change?...Both the gun and the ammo do. Well, If we have a proven gun, and we have proven good loads...but it all of a sudden won't shoot in a given condition, and we can barely nudge a tuner....and it begins to shoot like it should....what does that say?


This is how I use a tuner in both rf and cf. It's so simple a cave man could do it if he has a good shooting rifle. The reason I ask the difference in rf and cf, is because I'm much more experienced using a tuner on cf. I simply can't see a mechanical difference that matters. I'd love to hear someone convince me that an inert object...one firing a cartridge that is primed around the rim, the other by a primer in the center, would tune differently.


I'm not bragging here, and am certainly not a HOF shooter of either, but this is coming from someone who has not fired a gun in competition without a tuner since I think 2007, and have won my share of matches, tied records, have built record holding tunered rifles...and as far as I know, every one of them has been tuned as I mention. Tune changes. A tuner is a tool to keep up with that. BTW....AFAIK, myself and every record holder that I mention above, has tuned the same way.


One can believe in voodoo or they can believe in someone who designs, builds, and sells tuners that are winning.


There's certainly a lot going on with vibration...no doubt about it. I don't know of a single person that has FULLY explained what's going on with tuners...but it's so simple to use one, with consistent and repeatable results...understanding them doesn't matter much to the man or woman pulling the trigger....IMHO.


How's that for an honest post on tuners?---Mike Ezell

 

[JamesnTN]

Although I don't use one, I do have a question. Which way do you know to turn the tuner when for that day the rifle is out of tune, and how much?
I'm unsure of example to give, but say you know you have a potential load that will shoot sub 2" at 600 yards and the first relay of a match it shoots 3.5" no flyers just a opened up group.

 

[amamnn]

I think I can explain one thing about tuners, having recently bought, installed and tested, tested, tested until I found tune on my rimfire rifle with one lot# of Eley ammo in 65 degree weather.

Compared to finding tune on my CF rifles it took a lot of ammo to get to the first, and possibly only node.

RF folks obviously do not have the opportunity to tailor a cartridge to their rifle. Assuming that potential tuner users are wanting to find the perfect harmonic (or lack of) in their barrel for competition purposes, I would guess that a lot of those CF folks would not find barrel tuners to be an improvement over load tuning. In my case, this would be for two main reasons:

1--it costs a lot more time and money to load CF cartridges and test them and then do it over with a tuner, which may only give you one node as compared with going ahead with a complete ladder test which can give you a lot more useful info, and if you have that, why do you need a tuner?

2- Depending upon your personal tolerances, type and level of competition and conditions under which it is performed, the tuner testing may burn up an unacceptable number of peak accuracy rounds in a CF rifle. RF barrels last a lot longer and can therefore withstand a lot more test firings.

 

[savagedasher]

Yes tuners work on center fire. Their has ben two in the bulletin this year.
One October 4 2014 the second September 14 2014
I have ben testing tuners for over 5 years. I can tell you what they do but not how they do it. I find tuners work in a square . They change your bullet impact horizontal and vertical. At the point where they change is where you will find a tune.
Low ES and SD, is a must to shoot long range. I like my gun to shoot 3/8 of vertical or horizontal then find the point. A perfect tune is one that has a bullet above and one bellow the point of aim tuned into one hole. The test on the bench rest tuner shows how the point of impact changes..
I have tested almost all of them. To me a tuner you cant adjust with confidence. Is just like a barrel that you have tuned for a wind condition. The next day the wind changes and you have junk.
Larry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes tuners work on center fire. Their has ben two in the bulletin this year.
One October 4 2014 the second September 14 2014
I have ben testing tuners for over 5 years. I can tell you what they do but not how they do it. I find tuners work in a square . They change your bullet impact horizontal and vertical. At the point where they change is where you will find a tune.
Low ES and SD, is a must to shoot long range. I like my gun to shoot 3/8 of vertical or horizontal then find the point. A perfect tune is one that has a bullet above and one bellow the point of aim tuned into one hole. The test on the bench rest tuner shows how the point of impact changes..
I have tested almost all of them. To me a tuner you cant adjust with confidence. Is just like a barrel that you have tuned for a wind condition. The next day the wind changes and you have junk.
Larry

Good post and assessment. It's what I see as well.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Although I don't use one, I do have a question. Which way do you know to turn the tuner when for that day the rifle is out of tune, and how much?
I'm unsure of example to give, but say you know you have a potential load that will shoot sub 2" at 600 yards and the first relay of a match it shoots 3.5" no flyers just a opened up group.

I could make a long post about this, James. Let's just say it's much easier to use than to explain. Once you determine what completely in and out of tune look like, with a GOOD load, in your rifle, the range of adjustment is always within that small range of movement. Adjustment should be VERY small and the tune repeats itself...over and over. That's why big adjustment CAN work...with some luck. Lets say a good tune repeats every 4 marks on a tuner with 32 marks. The tune happens on EITHER side of perfect. I.e., you're in tune at 8 and also in tune at 4 or 12. IOW. You could turn either way and affect tune. Now, if it works in both directions, the tune window becomes twice as wide. This makes the potential range of tuner movement between "perfect" settings at 8 marks apart. Now, remember we said the tuner has 32 total marks? This means you have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting a good tune in every rotation of the tuner. This is why I have many customers call me up and say.."it was in perfect tune as shipped", when I send them a rf tuner. I didn't do anything magical. It's just that the tunes repeat. I just smile and say thank you when they praise how easy it was to find a good tune. I had a 1 in 4 chance of shipping it at a good setting...sort of...because the range between tunes can vary slightly between barrels/guns, but it's almost always close to this example.


The most common mistake(by far) I see people make with tuners is making too big of adjustments. You should be able to see .001"-.002" tuner movement, fore and aft, on target...often less, believe it or not. This is a GOOD thing. It keeps the window of tuner adjustment small and easy to keep track of at a glance if the tuner has index marks placed appropriately, vs. maybe..hitting on a good spot turning it a random amount.


To answer your question more specifically, shoot the gun and see for yourself. Remember, the tune repeats and it must be a known good load to begin with. You'll see how it works so fast, you'll wonder why you haven't been using one for years.---Mike Ezell

 

[jlow]

Can you use a tuner to compensate for a load moving off a node as a result of temperature changes over a day? Not completely off but just off the sweetest part of the node.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think I can explain one thing about tuners, having recently bought, installed and tested, tested, tested until I found tune on my rimfire rifle with one lot# of Eley ammo in 65 degree weather.

Compared to finding tune on my CF rifles it took a lot of ammo to get to the first, and possibly only node.

RF folks obviously do not have the opportunity to tailor a cartridge to their rifle. Assuming that potential tuner users are wanting to find the perfect harmonic (or lack of) in their barrel for competition purposes, I would guess that a lot of those CF folks would not find barrel tuners to be an improvement over load tuning. In my case, this would be for two main reasons:

1--it costs a lot more time and money to load CF cartridges and test them and then do it over with a tuner, which may only give you one node as compared with going ahead with a complete ladder test which can give you a lot more useful info, and if you have that, why do you need a tuner?

2- Depending upon your personal tolerances, type and level of competition and conditions under which it is performed, the tuner testing may burn up an unacceptable number of peak accuracy rounds in a CF rifle. RF barrels last a lot longer and can therefore withstand a lot more test firings.

Barrel life is a great reason TO use tuners. It takes no more time to work up a load for a gun with a tuner, than it does without one...if as many, because the tune window widens, in terms of conditions the same load will shoot well in.


To those that use tuners and STILL tune with powder charge and/or seating depth, without moving the tuner, the advantage of a tuner is just that...a wider tune window. All is NOT lost in this approach, but the best part of a tuner, IMHO, is. That being, the ability to keep a good load, a good load, without loading at the match. I haven't loaded at a match in 5-6 years now...at least, and have shot and won or finished well at matches where temps were 40° apart from start to finish of the match.....with PRE-LOADED AMMO!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Can you use a tuner to compensate for a load moving off a node as a result of temperature changes over a day? Not completely off but just off the sweetest part of the node.

Of course. That's exactly how I use a tuner.


There are days I never touch the tuner, and there are days I do. I try to tune on the first target of the day, for a couple of reasons. First, conditions are usually more conducive to tuning early, simply due to better conditions.
Second, early is likely to be as far different conditions as I last shot the gun in, as I'll typically see, due to starting in the am and finishing in the pm. Due to the wider tune window tuners give, often there is no adjustment needed between matches. ---Mike Ezell

 

[jlow]

Can you use a tuner to compensate for a load moving off a node as a result of temperature changes over a day? Not completely off but just off the sweetest part of the node.

Of course. That's exactly how I use a tuner.


There are days I never touch the tuner, and there are days I do. I try to tune on the first target of the day, for a couple of reasons. First, conditions are usually more conducive to tuning early, simply due to better conditions.
Second, early is likely to be as far different conditions as I last shot the gun in, as I'll typically see, due to starting in the am and finishing in the pm. Due to the wider tune window tuners give, often there is no adjustment needed between matches. ---Mike Ezell

That's what I figured but thought I would ask! ;D

So the wider tune window the tuner gives I assume is the same as a wider accuracy node? If so is it because of the added weight at the crown?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have been using barrel tuners on both of my long range bench rest/ F Class guns for over 2 years.
I have concluded that you have 2 choices; 1. Tune your load carefully and use up the barrel finding the correct powder, powder load, bullet set-back, etc. Or, 1. load a "typical" load and adjust your tuner from forward as far as possible, back in 1/20th turn increments till a sine wave of groups can be plotted ( probably about 1/3 to 1/4 turn total.). Then tweek in 1/40th steps around the best groups with 1/20th turn.
The groups should be 3 shot groups with 3 different loads, typical and + and - 1%. You will only need to do this at about 200 yds, but may need more than one group per adjustment based on shape of curve of group size vs tuner position.
Step 3, start competing! With a proper tune, you can almost forget about ambient temp, and distance.

Norm, thanks for the feedback. The barrel may be getting worn out but I am close behind. It would be good to start practicing more; however, polishing on my reloading stills has been a fun and is obviously very important.
Which tuner do you use and where do you buy? If it is a Harrell, I already have a boat load. Would a threaded tuner with an integral muzzle break be good combination in CF?
Ben

Ben, you'll need to check the rules in regard to a brake of any kind. Many cf disciplines disallow brakes.


As for using the Harrell tuner, I have two issues with them. First is the click(dentent) adjustment. The clicks don't always fall onto the best setting...you can skip over a good tune due to the detent spacing. The other thing is the attachment method. They clamp on, as you know.
Recoil forces are much higher in cf. If the tuner slips...just a thou or so, tune is changed.

 

[savagedasher]

Can you use a tuner to compensate for a load moving off a node as a result of temperature changes over a day? Not completely off but just off the sweetest part of the node.

That is what a tuner is all about. I don't call it a node Like I said tuners change the point of impact both vertical and horizontal and at the peak where the change is a tune. The width of a hash mark can be too much movement. . 005 movement at time can be too much. When I find a tune with .010 movement on a 32 threads per inch I know I have found a big sweet spot. Larry

 

[jlow]

Thanks guys!

So which tuner let's you do finer adjustments?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Can you use a tuner to compensate for a load moving off a node as a result of temperature changes over a day? Not completely off but just off the sweetest part of the node.

Of course. That's exactly how I use a tuner.


There are days I never touch the tuner, and there are days I do. I try to tune on the first target of the day, for a couple of reasons. First, conditions are usually more conducive to tuning early, simply due to better conditions.
Second, early is likely to be as far different conditions as I last shot the gun in, as I'll typically see, due to starting in the am and finishing in the pm. Due to the wider tune window tuners give, often there is no adjustment needed between matches. ---Mike Ezell

That's what I figured but thought I would ask! ;D

So the wider tune window the tuner gives I assume is the same as a wider accuracy node? If so is it because of the added weight at the crown?

Basically, yes. What's really happening is the barrel movement is being exaggerated..but slowed. In more scientific terms..the magnitude is increased but the frequency is reduced....with standard tuner designs using weight alone to dampen with. Mine uses particle dampening, giving the affect of a heavy tuner in terms of frequency, but without all of the same magnitude, due to better dampening. This gives a slower, wider window of tune, vs. a stiff, heavy barrel that moves little, but fast, leaving bullet exit to muzzle position timing more difficult to attain. IOW, due to the particle dampening, the barrel acts like a stiff barrel that "move's" slower, making the tune window wide and easy to find.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks guys!

So which tuner let's you do finer adjustments?

Well of course, mine! Read the link in blue, on my site linked below, about particle dampening. It's a very good read. In all honesty, all tuners do and work the same way. The particle dampening is the big difference that separates mine from the field.--Mike Ezell
http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/home-3/pdt-tuners/


The pics are old. I have added numbers and more graduation marks since the pics.

 

[savagedasher]

Thanks guys!

So which tuner let's you do finer adjustments?

I use the RAS tuners. As I should. WE developed them. After several months of testing we about ready to release them for AR rifles. Our AR tuners with a brake works great on hunting guns.
Larry