Tuners

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Keith, I'm on my phone and cant type a long and detailed answer right now, but lots of your questions have been addressed in other posts in this thread. I'm happy to help if you want to call tomorrow.--Mike Ezell

 

[Greyfox]

I want to re-ask a question prior because I didn't get the info I was hoping for -

I'll make a stab at this.

If you have a rifle that is/was shooting well and it starts to produce vertical, which way do you turn the tuner? The reason I ask is during an unlimited sighter period, one could make an adjustment to perfect the tune.

If the temp goes up turn the tuner out, if the temp goes down turn it in....tiny increments.

Would you turn the opposite direction for if you had Horizontal?

• My experience is, the tuner affects vertical. Horizontal iscontrolled by seating depth

Going in the opposite direction will just screw up your horizontal

Is there a consistent pattern to the groups as the tuner is turned? I mean horizontal then scatter then vertical then perfect, etc.

Is there a consistent pattern to your groups before you installed a tuner? In my experience, all a tuner will do is give you a tool to control vertical, nothing more.

Last one - I almost promise - Has anyone been able to determine if there is a difference in absolute precision between "tuned" with the tuner nearly against the shoulder and, say, two turns out? I understand that it is a repeating pattern, but is there any appreciable difference?

I've not found one, but then once I find a good location I work from there.

My tuner experience is rather limited with one barrel that has a Cortina tuner on it. The next barrel (at the smith right now) will have an Ezell tuner on it.

The Ezell tuner may be easier to adjust or may have a wider tune window. Other than that, they all work the same. A tuner is a tuner is a tuner.

YMMV,
Rick

Thanks!
Keith

 

[savagedasher]

Keith t will try to answer the question. Their is no certain direction you turn one . Tuner work in a square pattern. Lets start with a straight up and down vertical. shooting two shots. Then you move it say 10 degrees and it ends up being straight horizontal. Another 10 and it repeats back vertical another 10 another 10 it is horizontal. Saying every 10 degrees it changes V 10 H 10 V 10 H.
V H

H V 5 degrees of turn should be the point to where the barrel is aimed at when the bullet exits the barrel . When you shoot 2 shots it tell you from the first and second shot which way it is trending above or below or R or L the point of aim. 10 degrees is just a number. Half that is would be a closer number, Many of tunes are done in.010 or less movement on a 1 .500 Tuning ring
I hope that helps
The reason I use just two shots it tells me the way the pattern is trending from the point of aim.
Larry

 

[JamesnTN]

I understand how you can see the difference and make adjustments in short range BR but at LR we don't have that option to shoot a group before the match or during sight in and make adjustments because we can't see our bullet holes. So guessing at 600-1000 yards on turning in or out in my opinion is out of the question. Plus I can't seeing making a tune anyhow for those ranges if you can see say .300 verticle at 100-300 yards with just the finest adjustment that really multiplies when you get to 1000 yards. So much you may have a DQ

I'm just talking out loud here so forgive me.

 

[Greyfox]

Keith t will try to answer the question. Their is no certain direction you turn one . Tuner work in a square pattern. Lets start with a straight up and down vertical. shooting two shots. Then you move it say 10 degrees and it ends up being straight horizontal. Another 10 and it repeats back vertical another 10 another 10 it is horizontal. Saying every 10 degrees it changes V 10 H 10 V 10 H.
V H

H V 5 degrees of turn should be the point to where the barrel is aimed at when the bullet exits the barrel . When you shoot 2 shots it tell you from the first and second shot which way it is trending above or below or R or L the point of aim. 10 degrees is just a number. Half that is would be a closer number, Many of tunes are done in.010 or less movement on a 1 .500 Tuning ring
I hope that helps
The reason I use just two shots it tells me the way the pattern is trending from the point of aim.
Larry

Larry,
I don't know what distance you are shooting or the accuracy of your rifles. But, my experience in 100-300 yd BR is significantly different from yours. If I was getting the kind of results you report I would know that my seating depth was not properly tuned. My tuners will only change vertical tune if the seating depth is correct. Also, a two shot group would not necessarily show a true picture. Many times two shots will go in the same hole and the third will go one bullet high or low. The tune is much easier to see with a 3 or even 4 shot group.

YMMV,
Rick

 

[Greyfox]

I understand how you can see the difference and make adjustments in short range BR but at LR we don't have that option to shoot a group before the match or during sight in and make adjustments because we can't see our bullet holes. So guessing at 600-1000 yards on turning in or out in my opinion is out of the question. Plus I can't seeing making a tune anyhow for those ranges if you can see say .300 verticle at 100-300 yards with just the finest adjustment that really multiplies when you get to 1000 yards. So much you may have a DQ

I'm just talking out loud here so forgive me.

James,
Of course, I have virtually no experience with 600-1000 yd shooting so I am ignorant. Aren't there markers placed for your sighter shots during the sight in period? I've already addressed when to turn in and when to turn out. I can tell very quickly just how much to adjust based on how much vertical I see on the sighter target. How is what you describe any different than showing up for a match preloaded with either too much powder or not enough? With a tuner, you have an option. Without one you are stuck with what you have for the entire match. What am I missing?

Rick

 

[JamesnTN]

Rick,

Only ranges with pits have sighter targets to be pulled many you shoot either at clay birds on the ground or a steel plate in front of your targets. I understand your format of shooting, guess what I'm trying to say without seeing our bullet holes or groups until a target comes back which is a record target you just don't have a clue. I get the turn in or out if temps are up and down. But again you guys get to see your holes we don't. That's why I'm just talking out loud it seems they will be a great asset for short range but us at long range it could be just the opposite.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

It does take a while to find the tune initially, but after that, noting the temp, it's pretty easy to tune at the beginning and during a match. The simple rules to follow are if the temp goes up the tuner moves in and if the temp goes down the tuner moves out. Adjustments are tiny, a small as 1/16" turn or less in most cases. I have found that the vertical is handled by the tuner and the horizontal is changed by adjusting seating depth.

If the temp goes up turn the tuner out, if the temp goes down turn it in....tiny increments.

Rick,

Could you clarify which direction? I get things crossed up at times.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[savagedasher]

Keith t will try to answer the question. Their is no certain direction you turn one . Tuner work in a square pattern. Lets start with a straight up and down vertical. shooting two shots. Then you move it say 10 degrees and it ends up being straight horizontal. Another 10 and it repeats back vertical another 10 another 10 it is horizontal. Saying every 10 degrees it changes V 10 H 10 V 10 H.
V H

H V 5 degrees of turn should be the point to where the barrel is aimed at when the bullet exits the barrel . When you shoot 2 shots it tell you from the first and second shot which way it is trending above or below or R or L the point of aim. 10 degrees is just a number. Half that is would be a closer number, Many of tunes are done in.010 or less movement on a 1 .500 Tuning ring
I hope that helps
The reason I use just two shots it tells me the way the pattern is trending from the point of aim.
Larry

Larry,
I don't know what distance you are shooting or the accuracy of your rifles. But, my experience in 100-300 yd BR is significantly different from yours. If I was getting the kind of results you report I would know that my seating depth was not properly tuned. My tuners will only change vertical tune if the seating depth is correct. Also, a two shot group would not necessarily show a true picture. Many times two shots will go in the same hole and the third will go one bullet high or low. The tune is much easier to see with a 3 or even 4 shot group.

YMMV,
Rick

I have 3 Rim fire bench rest 2 Center fire bench rest and 5 long range bench rest guns. My primary shooting I do 600 and 1000 paper and 1018 yd gong. I have the record at 600 yard paper with 1.068 5 shot. I normal finish in the top 3 at 1018 gong shoots. I finished second in two of the 3 Florida State gong shoots. I do all my testing at 100 yards. When test I shoot two shots. When I get them in one hole. I do 10 or more two shots targets, I then go to fresh painted 8''gong at 1018 . I can see my bullet impact on the fresh painted surface. When I miss I can see the impact in the dirt.
I make my own test target with a series of + + on it . 10 2 shot targets Gives me more information then 4 5 shot. The reason being I can get two in around 10 seconds, If my 10 2 shot are .250 or less And the Gong has paint above and below the bolt in the center I know I have a load that shoot at 100 and 1018 . That is how I test It works for me. Happy New Year Larry

 

[Greyfox]

Keith t will try to answer the question. Their is no certain direction you turn one . Tuner work in a square pattern. Lets start with a straight up and down vertical. shooting two shots. Then you move it say 10 degrees and it ends up being straight horizontal. Another 10 and it repeats back vertical another 10 another 10 it is horizontal. Saying every 10 degrees it changes V 10 H 10 V 10 H.
V H

H V 5 degrees of turn should be the point to where the barrel is aimed at when the bullet exits the barrel . When you shoot 2 shots it tell you from the first and second shot which way it is trending above or below or R or L the point of aim. 10 degrees is just a number. Half that is would be a closer number, Many of tunes are done in.010 or less movement on a 1 .500 Tuning ring
I hope that helps
The reason I use just two shots it tells me the way the pattern is trending from the point of aim.
Larry

Larry,
I don't know what distance you are shooting or the accuracy of your rifles. But, my experience in 100-300 yd BR is significantly different from yours. If I was getting the kind of results you report I would know that my seating depth was not properly tuned. My tuners will only change vertical tune if the seating depth is correct. Also, a two shot group would not necessarily show a true picture. Many times two shots will go in the same hole and the third will go one bullet high or low. The tune is much easier to see with a 3 or even 4 shot group.

YMMV,
Rick

I have 3 Rim fire bench rest 2 Center fire bench rest and 5 long range bench rest guns. My primary shooting I do 600 and 1000 paper and 1018 yd gong. I have the record at 600 yard paper with 1.068 5 shot. I normal finish in the top 3 at 1018 gong shoots. I finished second in two of the 3 Florida State gong shoots. I do all my testing at 100 yards. When test I shoot two shots. When I get them in one hole. I do 10 or more two shots targets, I then go to fresh painted 8''gong at 1018 . I can see my bullet impact on the fresh painted surface. When I miss I can see the impact in the dirt.
I make my own test target with a series of + + on it . 10 2 shot targets Gives me more information then 4 5 shot. The reason being I can get two in around 10 seconds, If my 10 2 shot are .250 or less And the Gong has paint above and below the bolt in the center I know I have a load that shoot at 100 and 1018 . That is how I test It works for me. Happy New Year Larry

Thanks for the explanation Larry,
It is helpful'

Rick

 

[dmoran]

I have 3 Rim fire bench rest 2 Center fire bench rest and 5 long range bench rest guns. My primary shooting I do 600 and 1000 paper and 1018 yd gong. I have the record at 600 yard paper with 1.068 5 shot. I normal finish in the top 3 at 1018 gong shoots. I finished second in two of the 3 Florida State gong shoots. I do all my testing at 100 yards. When test I shoot two shots. When I get them in one hole. I do 10 or more two shots targets, I then go to fresh painted 8''gong at 1018 . I can see my bullet impact on the fresh painted surface. When I miss I can see the impact in the dirt.
I make my own test target with a series of + + on it . 10 2 shot targets Gives me more information then 4 5 shot. The reason being I can get two in around 10 seconds, If my 10 2 shot are .250 or less And the Gong has paint above and below the bolt in the center I know I have a load that shoot at 100 and 1018 . That is how I test It works for me. Happy New Year Larry

Larry -
You have repeatedly stated in other threads, 2-shot groups at 100yd is all you need.
Here you are saying at 100 and at 1018yds is how you do it.
That is very conflicting of your other replies.....
D

 

[savagedasher]

DAM I'M GLAD I'M NOT PERFECT. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Happy New Year Larry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Lots of questions here, but it's really so easy to tune with a tuner that once you see how easy it is, you'll wonder why you bothered with over thinking things. There has been some confusion around a single common question regarding tuners. That being, which way to turn. I relate this post to cf. The best way to state it may be that moving the tuner "in" acts like increasing the powder charge. Moving the tuner out, acts like decreasing the powder charge.
If I see vertical, I typically move the tuner in.


My findings differ from Rick's in that when the tuner setting is completely out of tune, lets say that's 4 marks from in tune, you will get big round ugly groups. When the tuner setting is close, lets say within 2 marks, the groups become vertically oriented, sometimes with a slant or stair step shape, depending on how close to tuned you are at that setting.


The reality is that the tune repeats itself, over and over. So, if 4 marks takes the gun completely out of tune, going either direction will improve the grouping. That's if the gun is COMPLETELY out of tune. Obviously, if you were within a mark and go the wrong way, the groups will enlarge, not get smaller. Simple fix, if you can see your shots.


All of that said, for long range, or whenever you can't see your shots, I have two points relative to tuners. One is that the gun should never go COMPLETELY out of tune, IME, based on temps. Your last setting will be very close to, or even in perfect tune, over a wide range of temps. So, if you can't be sure, leave it alone. How is that different than shooting whatever load you brought to the bench?
That brings me to my second point about tuners. That being that the tune window, relative to temps and atmospheric conditions is broadened SUBSTANTIALLY with a tuner. How much exactly is largely dependent of barrel stiffness...not necessarily length or contour, but stiffness.


What a tuner does in this regard is to "slow" the barrel's movement from vibration down(frequency), while increasing it's deflection(amplitude) by simply being a mass at the end of the beam(barrel). The benefit of that is that by moving further, MAINLY, BUT NOT ONLY, on the vertical plane, leaves a longer dwell time with which to FIND the tune or sweet spot. While frequency and amplitude are independent of one another, the tuner affects both in a manner that makes both finding and staying in tune, easier and through a wider range of atmospheric conditions.


This brings me to yet another point. It's true that some top shooters use tuners but never, or almost never touch them, once set. It is my view that they are missing out on a very beneficial feature of a tuner. That's not at all to say that what they are doing, won't work. They are simply utilizing the wider tune window that a tuner gives them, but still tuning much the same way as they always have, with powder charge and seating depth. I bet if you ask them, they'd tell you that they don't need to change their loads as often during a match, and that when the gun begins to show signs of going out of tune, it does so more gradually and predictably. Most reading this, are aware of Tony Boyer's "agg em' to death" philosophy. In his book he states something to the effect that if you shoot a screamer on a target, you'd better make a change to the load before going back to the line for your next target. Reason being, you're riding a thin line of margin, and it could fall off and shoot big on the next target. This is EXACTLY why I use a tuner. Not only does it make the tune window wider, but I have the option of adjusting my "load" at the bench by nudging the tuner. Very few people on this great planet are as good as Boyer, Bukys and Bart at tuning by powder charge and seating depth, on the fly. With a tuner, you don't have to be. More and more top shooters are seeing the benefits of a tuner, all the time. Do you think they'd be using them if they didn't?


Weight restrictions in LV class are the biggest hurdle to tuners becoming more prevalent, IMO, and that's getting better with the ultra light carbon fiber stocks of today. As I mentioned, too, there is room for work with barrel profiles that are more tuner friendly as well. ---Mike Ezell


Happy New Year!

 

[Erik Cortina]

First of all, happy new year's to all of you.

Which way to turn a tuner if vertical is encountered?

It depends where the tuner is. During testing, you will see that groups are wide and flat on one side of your node and narrow and tall on the other side. If you see vertical, turn tuner towards the flat and wide side. On my tuners, I find that about 1 hashmark makes a difference. If my load is performing bad, I shoot 5 shots and adjust 2 marks on tuner and take another 3-5 shots. I do this until load comes in. I can usually tune a load in about 10-12 shots during unlimited sighters.

 

[UltraBR30]

To Erik Cortina
How many marks on yours to make 1-revolution?
Philip

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

First of all, happy new year's to all of you.

Which way to turn a tuner if vertical is encountered?

It depends where the tuner is. During testing, you will see that groups are wide and flat on one side of your node and narrow and tall on the other side. If you see vertical, turn tuner towards the flat and wide side. On my tuners, I find that about 1 hashmark makes a difference. If my load is performing bad, I shoot 5 shots and adjust 2 marks on tuner and take another 3-5 shots. I do this until load comes in. I can usually tune a load in about 10-12 shots during unlimited sighters.

I've never seen what you describe with any tuner. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, or maybe it's specific to you tuner. When you get around to it, could you expound upon this. I'm sure it's because I'm just too dense to get what you are saying, but I've never seen a tuner, with a good load, produce wide, flat groups that weren't wind or shooter induced. ??? I've got very little experience with a tuner such as yours, that doesn't add mass to the end of the barrel..perhaps that's where it comes from.
Obviously, we have a different approach to tuner design, but I never saw the results you mention when I tested with one similar to yours, that I made to test with.


Hopefully, I'll have some vibration analysis testing finished pretty soon, that may confirm or reject my thoughts, but from initial testing along with research on the subject, I conclude that it takes mass to substantially slow the muzzle, due to higher amplitude of vibration and lower frequency of same. Another thought is if your tuner extended quite a bit further in front of the muzzle, the leverage would give more of the desirable affect I was looking for.

 

[Greyfox]

Just a couple of additional comments. What Larry is doing is working for him. Sounds like what Erik is doing works for him. Based on what's been said I don't know that I would even bother with a tuner on a 1000 yd rifle. I can't see how one would make adjustments if he couldn't see what kind of vertical spread he was getting. If you can't adjust at or during the match it seems to me that you would be just as well off finding a load based on your charge and go with it. But that's just me.

As far as the shape of groups changing with a tuner depending on direction, I've not seen it. When I start finding a tune for a barrel I work with seating depth quite a bit. This tends to take care of the horizontal for me. Once I've eliminated the horizontal I can focus on the vertical. As long as my gun handling is good and I read the flags correctly, vertical is easily eliminated by adjusting the tuner. I should add that to do this one needs to begin with a rifle and a barrel that is capable of groups in the .1s or .2s at most and that these are repeatable. If you're trying to use a tuner on a rifle that will only shoot MOA, good luck., you'll need a lot of it.

A two shot group at 100 yds would not be much help for me. It's much too easy to get lucky and shoot a two shot one hole group. Also, I know from much experience that just because a rifle is in tune for 100 yards does not mean it is in tune @ 200 much less 300. The matches we shoot typically are 100 yds in the morning and 200 yds in the afternoon. Usually the temperature has risen significantly during the morning. This usually means that even though I've shot very well @ 100 I need to check the tune @ 200. Sometimes the temp has gone up enough that the cycle has come full circle and I can keep the same setting, sometimes not. I always have to remind myself to check.

What I'm saying is that if one shoots a group in the .1s at 100 then goes directly to 1000, I don't think he will necessarily be in tune for that distance. If he were the group would be around 1" and be repeatable at least in theory. Of course, it's always seemed to me that 1000 yard accuracy depends more on equipment and gun handling than anything else. But again, that's just me.

Nothing I've said here is meant to criticize anyone or anything that has been previously said. But my experience has been different. Best of luck to anyone who chooses to try a tuner. Personally, I wouldn't compete without one as long as the class allows it.

YMMV,
Rick

 

[savagedasher]

Here is some of success we had last year.
Winning the 2014 Remington Challenge ,Reading Range, PA
1st 1000 yard Michigan State Championship Grayling May 2014
1st Michigan 600yard Mid Range prone Champion Ship 597-35x
1st Place Michigan 100 yard Long Range F/Class Regional, Grayling
1st Place 1000 Yard Agg. Lodi WI
Bill Litz using same gun Finished 3rd Place at the2014 F/ Class Nationals ,Phoenix , Mid
Tompkins Range Thanks John Pierce & Bill Litz
Larry

 

[Erik Cortina]

To Erik Cortina
How many marks on yours to make 1-revolution?
Philip

25

 

[UltraBR30]

Erik
My experience is the best configured tuners will repeat 4 to 6 times per revolution. If yours is 25 marks per revolution I would want it to totally repeat about every 5 marks or so. If they don’t repeat that often, they need to be moved forward or lengthened to move the mass arm affects more in front of the muzzle. The tuner configurations that don’t work very well on high-power rifles are the ones that only show portions of repeatable accuracy per revolution. Lengthen or shortening of the mass arm can greatly improve a poor configured tuner. These things are my experience to how they play out.
Philip