Lots of variables to that blanket statement. I understand that this is what you have found on your barell(s), but barrel rigidity plays a big factor in this. Also, a 1.250 straight is not necessarily stiffer that a HV contour. Length matters greatly to stiffness. Relative stiffness is what we're tuning.savagedasher said:
Tuners
- Thread starter BenPerfected
- Start date
savagedasher said:
Larry, we've pretty much agreed up until this point.
It's no coincidence that two people that have used, tested and built tuners would agree about how they should be used.
---Mike
I always have ben able to agree to disagree ;D ;D Larry
Touche!savagedasher said:
Mike I have a tee shirt if I can find another I will send one to you.gunsandgunsmithing said:
It says If I agreed with you we both would be wrong
LarryPERFECT! Make that a XXL, please, and I'll send you one of mine. What size?savagedasher said:Mike I have a tee shirt if I can find another I will send one to you.gunsandgunsmithing said:
It says If I agreed with you we both would be wrong
Lets get back to tuners.....I LOVE this stuff. Good thread.--Mike
Mike I have be working with the rim fire shooters. The only tuner I had to try was threaded. In rim fire that is a big no no . They believe that you can't thread a barrel Or you will loose the choke. With our tuner and threading the barrel it tuned better then the Harrells. Near 50% group size reduction. Larrygunsandgunsmithing said:
But from what? I don't begin to make claims of my tuners being able to tune a rifle better than perfect. I do feel there may be some advantage in terms of outright potential, but I can't shoot the difference consistently enough to make that claim. And we're not talking AR's here, but full blown proven winners in BR.savagedasher said:
IOW, if a gun is tuned to the hilt with any tuner, I don't believe any other one is going to make it 50% better...sorry.
Now, I have no doubt that your tuner can reduce group sizes by that much if it was never in tune with the other tuner, to begin with. None whatsoever.
In a VERY few cases I've seen a tuner being either substantially heavier or lighter making noticeable improvements over another tuner. That's why mine is weight adjustable...up or down.
If it takes a gun that will shoot consistent "teens" to consistent "zero's"...you got something that I'd have to see to believe. If it takes a 1moa gun to .5 moa...you've got a gun that won't shoot either way.
As I said before, all tuners work and do the same way/thing. What do you feel makes yours special?
I'm not sure you will save any barrel life with or without the tuner unless you don't care about having the best load you can craft for your rig and then use the tuner to fine tune.
I have just thrown a proven load for one rifle into another rifle with a tuner and solely used the tuner to bring the group in and it got me a good group at 1000 yards but I never did test that in competition and was just testing the tuners effects at long range.
My tuner experience has been cf with 7mm and 6mm. At 1000 yards just adjusting the tuner will cover a whole FClass target without making any scope adjustments and I don't think I would have the guts to adjust my tuner during a match because the poi with a very minor tuner adjustment can change significantly!
With my brx and dasher the loads I crafted, proved more reliable and consistent over 4 days of testing at various times of day than what the tuner adjustments gave me. My load for the brx would average 1/8-1/4moa at 200 yds. And with the tuner I could get the groups into the zeros and .1's for 3-5 groups of 3 shots but it would not replicate the next day.
My tuner tests and load development is geared towards 1000 yard Fclass. Whatever I take to a match stays the same except for minor seating depth adjustments from one day to the next. As for the tuner, it stays locked in on what proved to be the best setting during testing.
I am still comparing tuner vs no tuner and deciding if I want to deal with another variable.
I have just thrown a proven load for one rifle into another rifle with a tuner and solely used the tuner to bring the group in and it got me a good group at 1000 yards but I never did test that in competition and was just testing the tuners effects at long range.
My tuner experience has been cf with 7mm and 6mm. At 1000 yards just adjusting the tuner will cover a whole FClass target without making any scope adjustments and I don't think I would have the guts to adjust my tuner during a match because the poi with a very minor tuner adjustment can change significantly!
With my brx and dasher the loads I crafted, proved more reliable and consistent over 4 days of testing at various times of day than what the tuner adjustments gave me. My load for the brx would average 1/8-1/4moa at 200 yds. And with the tuner I could get the groups into the zeros and .1's for 3-5 groups of 3 shots but it would not replicate the next day.
My tuner tests and load development is geared towards 1000 yard Fclass. Whatever I take to a match stays the same except for minor seating depth adjustments from one day to the next. As for the tuner, it stays locked in on what proved to be the best setting during testing.
I am still comparing tuner vs no tuner and deciding if I want to deal with another variable.
We have found Weight doesn't have as much Effect as being able to find that small peak Our tuner brakes For a 1.26 barrel weighs 9.625 Oz the small one fits 1.120 and under with 7.125 oz. I can take 9.625 oz and put it on a heavy varmint taper and get the same results The f class weighs 6.0 OZ the one for 0.980 barrel weighs 5.625 . All will tune up to 1.250 barrels. We have one on 2.00 barrel it looks stupid but still tunes.gunsandgunsmithing said:
I have found a perfect tuned barrel you can only make it shoot worse. But you and I know all it takes is a weather change. and that perfect tuned barrel turns to junk..
So far in all my testing I find all tuners work the same square From rim fire to long range bench rest.
Ours can be adjusted with out a jam screw. When you tighten a tuner by jamming you end up with a barrel with a tune that is non adjustable Larry
The question of tuner weight is still a little mysterious to me. For a given barrel, say a 22'' SS barrel in 6BR, if I add a relatively light tuner so as not to go over the 13.5 HV weight limit, should it be adjusted in larger increments than a heavier tuner?
Are there any guidelines for calculating ballpark tuner weight based on barrel length? caliber? barrel diameter? barrel material (CM versus SS)?
Are there any guidelines for calculating ballpark tuner weight based on barrel length? caliber? barrel diameter? barrel material (CM versus SS)?
Generally, yes, but the difference in increments between barrels is small...almost non-existent.Tozguy said:
As for calculating ideal weight and location...I'm working on it and hope to be able to build a chart based on barrel stiffness. No way I know of for it to be a precise way of setting the tuner...but I think it'll get us in the ballpark. There are other variables, such as the rest of the rifle, the rest, the way the gun is held or free recoiled, total weight, how it moves in the bags....The list goes on.
Also, I'm currently involved in the testing of a barrel with one of my tuners, that will have a tuner specific contour. We're just getting started, so it may be a while before I have meaningful feedback from it. This should help with overall weight issues with using tuners in LV class and at the same time, give the tuner more "authority". You're line of thought is valid, IMHO.---Mike Ezell
I started using a tuner 6=7 years ago in VFS matches on a 30BR. In the past 4 years I've only shot in UBR matches. I shoot all 4 classes and the only class that doesn't allow a tuner is Factory Class. Based on the number of events over this time period and the fact that I usually shoot 2 rifles at every event I'm comfortable saying I have shot in more score matches than anyone. All except Factory Class have been shot with tuners. I would not even consider shooting a match without a rifle equipped with a tuner.
My experience has been that rather than adding another variable tuners have the potential to eliminate or at least reduce most tuning errors. As has been mentioned, I think, you must start with a very accurate rifle and have the ability to read conditions fairly well or you're just guessing. You must start with a load that the rifle has shown to shoot well. (this has never been a problem for me). It does take a while to find the tune initially, but after that, noting the temp, it's pretty easy to tune at the beginning and during a match. The simple rules to follow are if the temp goes up the tuner moves in and if the temp goes down the tuner moves out. Adjustments are tiny, a small as 1/16" turn or less in most cases. I have found that the vertical is handled by the tuner and the horizontal is changed by adjusting seating depth.
I go to every match preloaded. The seating depth has already been determined and I don't change during a match. During the sight in/warm up, I begin with a 3 shot group and look for vertical. If I have little or no vertical, I don't change anything. If I have more than 1/4 bullet diameter vertical I adjust the tuner and shoot another group. If it is larger I adjust in the other direction and check with a group. It virtually never take more than 2-3 groups to set the tune. As the day progresses and the temp rises, I check with a 3 shot group from time to time. If the targets don't show a change, I don't do anything different.
I have 6-7 different types of tuners. They all do exactly the same thing. Some are easier than others to adjust and I do have preferences. I know that there are some of the best group shooters who find a tune with a tuner then adjust the load between relays just as they have done in the past. I don't really understand this kind of thinking, but then I never did much group shooting and it works for them. I try and keep it simple. I have no experience with anything longer than 300 yards, so I can't comment on that, but I can't see that it would work any different.
YMMV,
Rick
My experience has been that rather than adding another variable tuners have the potential to eliminate or at least reduce most tuning errors. As has been mentioned, I think, you must start with a very accurate rifle and have the ability to read conditions fairly well or you're just guessing. You must start with a load that the rifle has shown to shoot well. (this has never been a problem for me). It does take a while to find the tune initially, but after that, noting the temp, it's pretty easy to tune at the beginning and during a match. The simple rules to follow are if the temp goes up the tuner moves in and if the temp goes down the tuner moves out. Adjustments are tiny, a small as 1/16" turn or less in most cases. I have found that the vertical is handled by the tuner and the horizontal is changed by adjusting seating depth.
I go to every match preloaded. The seating depth has already been determined and I don't change during a match. During the sight in/warm up, I begin with a 3 shot group and look for vertical. If I have little or no vertical, I don't change anything. If I have more than 1/4 bullet diameter vertical I adjust the tuner and shoot another group. If it is larger I adjust in the other direction and check with a group. It virtually never take more than 2-3 groups to set the tune. As the day progresses and the temp rises, I check with a 3 shot group from time to time. If the targets don't show a change, I don't do anything different.
I have 6-7 different types of tuners. They all do exactly the same thing. Some are easier than others to adjust and I do have preferences. I know that there are some of the best group shooters who find a tune with a tuner then adjust the load between relays just as they have done in the past. I don't really understand this kind of thinking, but then I never did much group shooting and it works for them. I try and keep it simple. I have no experience with anything longer than 300 yards, so I can't comment on that, but I can't see that it would work any different.
YMMV,
Rick
After over 5 years of testing . I have not found that not to be true. The only way I can explain it is to make a tuning ring lite you must decease mass. or out side diameter. The larger the diameter you move farther external but the internal movement is the same.Tozguy said:
A tuner doesn't just tune the barrel just like a load doesn't. How many time have you had a gun shoot vertical. Bedding powder changes seating depth and you still had it. Change the bags hardness or their location their location on the gun and they get smaller. Many of times I have found the reason the gun doesn't shoot it the shooter. Man made error. No tuner or load change can correct that.
Testing our AR tuners My 10 year old Grand Son made me look Stupid . The gun had a ugly 6# trigger. When I shot it I was causing man made error. Him from not having enough hand strength he used both hand fingers.
Now back to what you ask my best explanation is You move 10 Degrees off the exact center as the diameter decreases so does the same amount of external movement. Like I said to start I can show you the results But I Can't tell you how it works. A tuner tunes the whole shooting system.
Larry
Joe R
Gold $$ Contributor
I recently bought one from Erik Cortina, but I haven't received it yet. You can see pictures and references here
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3828708.0
Joe
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3828708.0
Joe
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
I want to re-ask a question prior because I didn't get the info I was hoping for -
If you have a rifle that is/was shooting well and it starts to produce vertical, which way do you turn the tuner? The reason I ask is during an unlimited sighter period, one could make an adjustment to perfect the tune.
Would you turn the opposite direction for if you had Horizontal?
Is there a consistent pattern to the groups as the tuner is turned? I mean horizontal then scatter then vertical then perfect, etc.
Last one - I almost promise - Has anyone been able to determine if there is a difference in absolute precision between "tuned" with the tuner nearly against the shoulder and, say, two turns out? I understand that it is a repeating pattern, but is there any appreciable difference?
My tuner experience is rather limited with one barrel that has a Cortina tuner on it. The next barrel (at the smith right now) will have an Ezell tuner on it.
Thanks!
Keith
If you have a rifle that is/was shooting well and it starts to produce vertical, which way do you turn the tuner? The reason I ask is during an unlimited sighter period, one could make an adjustment to perfect the tune.
Would you turn the opposite direction for if you had Horizontal?
Is there a consistent pattern to the groups as the tuner is turned? I mean horizontal then scatter then vertical then perfect, etc.
Last one - I almost promise - Has anyone been able to determine if there is a difference in absolute precision between "tuned" with the tuner nearly against the shoulder and, say, two turns out? I understand that it is a repeating pattern, but is there any appreciable difference?
My tuner experience is rather limited with one barrel that has a Cortina tuner on it. The next barrel (at the smith right now) will have an Ezell tuner on it.
Thanks!
Keith
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