The most accurate cartridge.

[manitou210]

Group of shooters in Ottawa Canada shoot F class with the 223 Rem we call them the Super Deuces in the F/TR class using fast twist 1/7 barrels
shooting 80 & 90 gr Bergers puts the 224 bullet in a class way above the 222 at longer distances like 200 & 300y and 1000 y
last summer one fellow shot 15shots at 900m on a icfra Target 5" v bull scored a 75 with 12 v bulls not shabby
There are a few shooters with 6brs and one Hart 6ppc I know you won't believe this but not once did they beat the 223 at 300y and only o0nce at 200y the High BC of 500 to 551 plus we use Hoover bullet pointer. I guess its not fair to the 6br & 6ppc as these F class guns weigh 18lbs with 30" barrels.
Barnard ,Defiance,40x rems, & Pierce
All using 12 to 42 NF or Sightron 10 to 50 power scopes, lapua brass all neck-turned a prepped PP.
When testing at 100 yards these rifles would constantly shoot under .250"and many in .150" with good conditions
two groups fired where in .090.
Stay away from the 80gr VLDs, match are better and the JLK 80s work very well

 

[Webster]

To hold up the one small group of 0.009" and say this is why the cartridge should still be competitive doesn't make sense. I am sure the shooter was very skilled but to pick the one best group out of thousands shot in competition doesn't show what the cartridge is capable of. The competitive shooters know what works. They all use a 6PPC for 100 & 200 yds. Most of the matches are won by the person that reads conditions the best making the fewest mistakes.

 

[bozo699]

OMG!!!! this thread has become ridiculous!!! I had decided I would not comment but several days and I can't take it any more! next the 30/30 is going to be beating the 30br's on 300yard competition, I have no idea what is wrong with all the short range br shooters,...the idiots are using the 6ppc and the 30 br's what is the matter with them, with the superior accuracy edge the .223 has and the .222 I have no idea why they f.f all that brass for the ppc's and the 30br's some shooters I tell ya?................................I myself am competing at 1000 yards with my K Hornet and so far I have NEVER been beat! hopefully this year or next I can get some competition to shoot against me!
Wayne.

 

[Frankr]

guys we have all seen them wednesday rifle's. some very very good barrels can shoot some great group's.
I have a freind who has a weighted @18lbs 223AI 14 twist.. with lapua brass and good bullets it has shot group after group in the low to mid .100's . i think i have him talked into taking it to a club match and see how he does as they wont weigh it and dont really care if it's over weight. now i guess if he win's and win's with it then they might have to weigh it. but i know how hard it is in competition to take a great shooting rifle and end up with .3 to .4 agg. so i say if it shoot's that good bring it..i have a 6BR that has shoot allmost every group it's fired in the mid .100's but the best i have been able to agg in a match with it is a .350.. so conditions under match time change everything and one great group does not make a agg.

 

[TC260]

I have shot hundreds of coyotes and rabbits with it and 40 or so deer, and six Elk with that gun. So if my son had ever asked me a similar question, my answer would have been the .30-06. I don't think that young man was looking for an empirical answer, in my OPINION, he was just bonding with his Dad.

Now that's a breath of fresh air. Brings back great memories of shooting with my dad as a kid and working on cars together as a teenager.

 

[gambleone]

Same here. A+ to that.

 

[Longfeather]

OMG!!!! this thread has become ridiculous!!! I had decided I would not comment but several days and I can't take it any more! next the 30/30 is going to be beating the 30br's on 300yard competition, I have no idea what is wrong with all the short range br shooters,...the idiots are using the 6ppc and the 30 br's what is the matter with them, with the superior accuracy edge the .223 has and the .222 I have no idea why they f.f all that brass for the ppc's and the 30br's some shooters I tell ya?................................I myself am competing at 1000 yards with my K Hornet and so far I have NEVER been beat! hopefully this year or next I can get some competition to shoot against me!
Wayne.

Well Wayne...you just let the cat out of the bag. I was wondering when the 22 caliber refiners were going to come up for air on this thread. It's time to tell it like it is. Not meaning to hurt any feelings. Not trying to take any credit away from all our 6PPC, 6BR or 30 shooters as you're all class gentlemen in pursuit of accuracy. Truth is in the putting. The .222 was developed in 1950 by one of Remington's most noted gunsmiths (Mike Walker). The cartrige either by design, by luck, or by both had the correct proportions to become "the most accurate cartridge". It was so accurate that we immediately attempted to out perform the round by creating sister cartridges (.222 rem mag, .221 fireball, .222 special, .223, 5.56, and the newest of the lot the .204 Ruger). Our pursuit of accuraccy took us away from the 22 caliber to the 24 caliber to try to find that diamond in the coal mine. I challenge all of you with this: Make your next bench rifle build around the Remington .222. Give it the same attention you would your 6PPC,6BR or 30. Pick your best barrel, stock, trigger, scope and smith. Build it around the Remington .222, find your load and you'll outshoot any of the current record breaking cartridges in both group shooting and aag from 100 to 1000 yards. PS:the reason the 6PPC and the 30's are winning so many matches is thats what everybodys been using. If you want to outshhoot everyone at the range at every distance build a Remington .222. PS: Prepare yourself as you will draw a crowd wondering what the heck you're shooting. The oldest best kept secret is out.....

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

I'm no competition shooter but, I'm no dumby either! A .222 Rem. at a 1,000 yds.? I hate to say it but, that dog won't hunt! The 6ppc is a fine short range benchrest cartridge but, it isn't used at a grandy either! I had a friend tell me one time his father shot 1,000 yd br with a 6x47 imp and 65gr comp. bullets! I didn't have the heart to tell him he was sadly mistaken! That's all!

Mike

 

[nonliberal]

I've been to matches where I think I actually have a rifle that is more accurate and in better tune than the majority of the rifles on the line that particular day. At the same time I get beat by half of those less accurate rifles, and I could hand my rifle to the guy on the left or the right of me and he could out shoot me and even improve on his own score with it.

My point is I am relatively young compared to the average competitor at my range and even though my gun may be shooting lights out I still get my butt handed to me by guys with more experience and better reading skills. Not as much the cartridge as the shooter.

 

[LHSmith]

Sorry, Longwinded, but I don't think you have a clue as to what it takes to win in todays Point Blank Group (or Score) competition. THE AGG RULES. Small groups (screamers ) win patches....AGG winners win MATCHES........Rewarding the Agg winner kind of removes the "LUCK" from serious competition. Many have tried to campaign the .222 successfully in recent times.....George Kelbly comes to mind in a few Super-Shoot attempts. I have a HV .222 that is built with top level components( Edge stock, Hart BBl, Leupold 40x LCS, jewel, Rem.700 trued to the n'th degree) and using Lapua brass and custom bullets. On a calm day it will shoot with my PPC's, but if I miss a let-up, or it gets switchy.....it's not going to even agg with the top half of the field. I never seem to get to those matches where conditions were perfect throughout the day.
Believe me, there are competitors who would jump at the chance to win a registered match with "THE" cartridge that will consistently out agg the 6 PPC. The only one that might have a chance is the .22 PPC .100 short.....it won the FISS a few years back.
Your dimes and quarters fantasy about the .222 is not supported by the facts.
BTW, Mike Walker was a design engineer for Remington.....not gunsmith.
100-1000 yds.? ...........this is just one of those troll threads where nothing is learned because the OP's question has no basis in reality......I shouldn't have wasted my time responding.

 

[bozo699]

Sorry, Longwinded, but I don't think you have a clue as to what it takes to win in todays Point Blank Group (or Score) competition. THE AGG RULES. Small groups (screamers ) win patches....AGG winners win MATCHES........Rewarding the Agg winner kind of removes the "LUCK" from serious competition. Many have tried to campaign the .222 successfully in recent times.....George Kelbly comes to mind in a few Super-Shoot attempts. I have a HV .222 that is built with top level components( Edge stock, Hart BBl, Leupold 40x LCS, jewel, Rem.700 trued to the n'th degree) and using Lapua brass and custom bullets. On a calm day it will shoot with my PPC's, but if I miss a let-up, or it gets switchy.....it's not going to even agg with the top half of the field. I never seem to get to those matches where conditions were perfect throughout the day.
Believe me, there are competitors who would jump at the chance to win a registered match with "THE" cartridge that will consistently out agg the 6 PPC. The only one that might have a chance is the .22 PPC .100 short.....it won the FISS a few years back.
Your dimes and quarters fantasy about the .222 is not supported by the facts.
BTW, Mike Walker was a design engineer for Remington.....not gunsmith.
100-1000 yds.? ...........this is just one of those troll threads where nothing is learned because the OP's question has no basis in reality......I shouldn't have wasted my time responding.

Fact!!!!
Wayne.

 

[Hombre0321]

Mr. Smith, great post wish I could heed it but here I am posting, I can hate myself later I guess.

The Op's last post shows just how silly some of these discussions can become. I hate to tell him but there are dozens (at least) of very well built and equiped 222 out there today. The 222 will not shoot alongside the 6ppc day in and day out, that has been true for decades now. I mean what does he think there is a conspiracy against using the 222? Or that maybe the best shooters in Point Blank competition are not using it because they don't want an advantage? Or maybe its because all of those 6ppc shooters really know how much better the 222 is but choose to shoot the inferior 6ppc just because they have them in the safe? Come on guys surely no one actually thinks that.

The 222 was in it's day the best choice there was. A quick look into the record books of years ago plainly shows that. It did not just go away in Point Blank competition, it was "replaced" by a much better cartridge...

Roland

 

[Hombre0321]

OMG!!!! this thread has become ridiculous!!! I had decided I would not comment but several days and I can't take it any more! next the 30/30 is going to be beating the 30br's on 300yard competition, I have no idea what is wrong with all the short range br shooters,...the idiots are using the 6ppc and the 30 br's what is the matter with them, with the superior accuracy edge the .223 has and the .222 I have no idea why they f.f all that brass for the ppc's and the 30br's some shooters I tell ya?................................I myself am competing at 1000 yards with my K Hornet and so far I have NEVER been beat! hopefully this year or next I can get some competition to shoot against me!
Wayne.

Wayne, As I read your post, which I agree with complettly in theory, I just had to respond.

Believe it or not but the 30/30 is alive and well in the Benchrest Game. Not as the parent cartridge or case for some wild wildcat but as the 30/30. Micheal Turner a custom bullet guy has won many many matches at distances of 100 to 300 yards shooting his custom Benchrest Rifle chambered in 30/30.

Now that doesn't say it is in the running for the most accurate cartridge it speaks more to a man desire to make the thing shoot, and what can be accomplised with enough talent. I have seen some targets shot with Micheals rifle some in the O's and many in the 1's.

Roland

 

[bozo699]

OMG!!!! this thread has become ridiculous!!! I had decided I would not comment but several days and I can't take it any more! next the 30/30 is going to be beating the 30br's on 300yard competition, I have no idea what is wrong with all the short range br shooters,...the idiots are using the 6ppc and the 30 br's what is the matter with them, with the superior accuracy edge the .223 has and the .222 I have no idea why they f.f all that brass for the ppc's and the 30br's some shooters I tell ya?................................I myself am competing at 1000 yards with my K Hornet and so far I have NEVER been beat! hopefully this year or next I can get some competition to shoot against me!
Wayne.

Wayne, As I read your post, which I agree with complettly in theory, I just had to respond.

Believe it or not but the 30/30 is alive and well in the Benchrest Game. Not as the parent cartridge or case for some wild wildcat but as the 30/30. Micheal Turner a custom bullet guy has won many many matches at distances of 100 to 300 yards shooting his custom Benchrest Rifle chambered in 30/30.

Now that doesn't say it is in the running for the most accurate cartridge it speaks more to a man desire to make the thing shoot, and what can be accomplised with enough talent. I have seen some targets shot with Micheals rifle some in the O's and many in the 1's.

Roland

Roland,
I am aware of that my friend, there was an article about him and the rifle here on 6br a year or two back, I was just saying?.............I own a L-46 in .222 that will shoot in the 2s most any time I shoot it and have shot in the teens with it but it won't agg with my 6br no less my 6ppc so I was just being sarcastic!! I tend to do that quite often I guess,...sorry!
Wayne.

 

[Hombre0321]

Roland,
I am aware of that my friend, there was an article about him and the rifle here on 6br a year or two back, I was just saying?.............I own a L-46 in .222 that will shoot in the 2s most any time I shoot it and have shot in the teens with it but it won't agg with my 6br no less my 6ppc so I was just being sarcastic!! I tend to do that quite often I guess,...sorry!
Wayne.

Wayne, You misunderstand-- No Sorry needed or even called for on your part. Wayne I complettly understood the sarcasim in your post, and agree with it as well. When I made that post it was with a smile. Maybe I need to use them little smiley things.

Roland

 

[BigDMT]

That's it, I'm bringing my Browning Buckmark 22lr Varmint pistol to competition this year Wayne. I'll show you lol!

 

[bozo699]

That's it, I'm bringing my Browning Buckmark 22lr Varmint pistol to competition this year Wayne. I'll show you lol!

Brandon,
I think you would do quite well with it I am sure

Roland,
Were all good I always enjoy your posts
Wayne.

 

[Randfal]

Just 2 cents here:
Can't resist saying it.......
Let's look at it from the outside....
If everyone is shooting 6ppc, wouldn't it statistically be number one? Not because it the most accurate, but because if it is the only thing shot in a match, it's always going to win. If everyone shot the .222, it would be king. A little variety might liven things up a little.

....and +1 for the Triple Deuce.

 

[LHSmith]

Just 2 cents here:
Can't resist saying it.......
Let's look at it from the outside....
If everyone is shooting 6ppc, wouldn't it statistically be number one? Not because it the most accurate, but because if it is the only thing shot in a match, it's always going to win. If everyone shot the .222, it would be king. A little variety might liven things up a little.

....and +1 for the Triple Deuce.

Or.... it just IS simply the most accurate cartridge in the aggregate scheme of things (e.g. ALL DAY LONG)
Again, it depends how you want to measure "accuracy."
The 6 PPC has been contested by other cartridges. In the past several SuperShoots there has been as many as 8% of the competitors using .22 caliber cartridges (in the classes where they are legal) and an occasional 30 BR. In fact the SS has been won twice ('99 & '04) with .22 calibers. However, the cartridge used was a .22 PPC short...a cartridge that has a reputation for winning many small group awards.....but it simply will not agg consistently with the 6PPC.
One would have to possess uncanny wind reading skills to overcome the wind's affect on the .222's 52 gr. bullet maxed out at 3250 fps against the .22 PPC short's ~ 3500 fps...or the 6 PPC's 68 gr. bullet @ 3400 fps.
So, for all you triple-deuce nostalgia nuts, IMHO on a day with perfect conditions.....and holding perfect throughout the day...YES a .222 can be as accurate as the PPC's ...both 22's and 6's....it would come down to which shooter made the fewest bench mistakes.....But no one can find that shooting range at Eutopia where perfect conditions exist all the time.
George Kelbly, owner of Kelbly Rifles (and SS host for most of it's history) started competition in 1957 with a .222. George has attended every group national since '57 (except one), but early on gravitated to the .22/45 -a .222 wildcat, and then in later years campaigned a .220 Russian ( the PPC parent case)....all the way up to this past year. George has accumulated a lot of points and won a bunch of wood. He has the Kelbly shop, and a state of the art shooting range at his disposal. If anyone thought the .222 would win matches it would be George.
My own experiences bears this out, I have a .222 HV in addition to 6 PPC's in both LV and HV. When conditions are mild and steady....I cannot discern any accuracy difference from the 3 rifles without getting measuring with calipers....the minute conditions become unsteady, the .222 tosses shots. It is just not humanly possible to react to even subtle changes to overcome the extra drift of the slower .22 bullet from a .222.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It's been my experience that if you pull the trigger at the wrong time, the bullet does NOT go where you wanted it to go, regardless of the cartridge driving it.