Should LV and HV Classes Be Merged?

[jimmymac]

Would I travel to attend matches which are currently two day LV & HV matches, to only shoot for one day? Most likely not.

A simpler question would be "How do you make the sport cheaper and more affordable" so it is more affordable to participate?

I think that is the crux of the situation. It isn't the weight of the gun that limits people. By default, two day matches are not really two days. You need to get there ahead of time to secure a loading spot, place flags, register and hopefully get a tuning session in before the festivities begin. That equates to time and money. A guy has to sleep and eat somewhere. Cheap and SR BR do not go hand in hand. It costs a chunk of money and time to play this game at registered matches. I see no way around it. You either have the means or you don't. Fun game though.

 

[Kiwishooter]

I think that is the crux of the situation. It isn't the weight of the gun that limits people. By default, two day matches are not really two days. You need to get there ahead of time to secure a loading spot, place flags, register and hopefully get a tuning session in before the festivities begin. That equates to time and money. A guy has to sleep and eat somewhere. Cheap and SR BR do not go hand in hand. It costs a chunk of money and time to play this game at registered matches. I see no way around it. You either have the means or you don't. Fun game though.

Yes I know all about the travel, accommodation, practice etc I already travel 9hrs (each way) to compete in my nearest match, so I do have an idea of costs. My nearest BR range is 9hrs away so I don't even have anywhere to tune rifles locally or practice.
Would I do all that travel to compete in a one day event.........not likely

If I had to buy all the gear to compete and then travel to shoot I'm not sure I could afford it now, in 2005 I paid less than 1/2 what it costs to purchase a co-ax rest now.
Back in 1998 when I started it was a Wilson neck sizer and a Wilson seater plus a Sinclair arbor press I think about $150 back then, now a custom full length die will set you back more than that and a cheap custom press is around $220 plus the seating die and arbor press

The cost to get into the sport has ballooned significantly

 

[rayporter]

the sporter class does not have any chance of developing stock or barrel contour changes because of the wt limit of ten and a half lbs. if the sporter class wt limit had been raised to at least 12 lb maybe some shooters would try to find stock or barrel contour changes that would help.

better yet raise the wt to 22 lb and then the long range guys could shoot in it and unlimited.
that would give them 2 classes to shoot.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

From my point of view, after years of talking to guys and trying to figure out why BR doesnt grow like other games my opinion is it has nothing to do with rules. Remember, the guys that would be potential new shooters dont even know the rules. Especially the details in the rules. At best they have a rough idea how the game is played. When a new shooter comes to me to get a rifle, I talk to them and explain the different games so they can make a decision. Many dont even know if they want to shoot F Class or BR. So the way to get new shooters in my opinion is to make the game look fun to the new crowd. Its that simple.

 

[dcali]

As an outsider looking in (I have a short range BR rifle, but do not compete), it strikes me as very weird that there are two very similar classes. Take that for what it's worth.

And if you want two cents on why people don't pick up BR, I think a big one is that the perception is that it's extremely expensive. Like needing multiple barrels, $500 dies, etc, etc. I think one of the reasons F Class grew so rapidly is that it was easy to get into and you didn't have to spend a ton. That's still mostly true, but the proliferation of ultra-expesnive gear like AMPs, idods, $3000 scopes, and the like are changing that perception. That said, anecdotally, F class does not seem to be growing as much anymore. I think that's partly due to actual cost, and the perception of cost. But you can have fun shooting a 3/4 minute rifle in F class, and even beat some people shooting proper customs. I can think of tons of people who show up with a sub par rifle, get hooked, and jump in with a custom the next season. Happens all the time.

You can't do that in BR. The barrier to entry is high for BR, and the perception is that you need a 2nd mortgage to compete at the top.

And to be honest, there's also a stereotype perception that it's a bunch of old men who bicker like bitter housewives at the PTA. I think I remember a Precision Shooting article years ago that was a funny parody of that stereotype. I have found this stereotype to be largely untrue - at least no worse than other disciplines - but it is what it is.

 

[ISS]

This would cost a lot of serious shooters HOF points.

ISS

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This would cost a lot of serious shooters HOF points.

ISS

Records could still be kept, like IBS does in VFS. You can shoot a LV rifle if you choose.

 

[Shooter13]

This would cost a lot of serious shooters HOF points.

ISS

You don't remove points from the past nor do you take anything away that has already been earned.

 

[jackieschmidt]

This would cost a lot of serious shooters HOF points.

ISS

While I admire my fellow shooters who have the time to attend National Events and possess the skill to actually win something, I believe the HOF system is the single biggest reason that the standard Four Gun Format never changes.

Other sporting venues are addressing the cost to compete. Even ones that involve millions of dollars just to get in.

Take NASCAR as an example. Several years ago, the Sanctioning Body went on a drastic cost cutting mode. No more fabricated bodies. No more private built frames, suspension parts, or just about anything on the car. All parts are manufactured by proprietary manufactures under contract to NASCAR. The car owners use these parts to build the car, and you can not modify anything. Period.

This has cut cost dramatically, (think of all of the people who suddenly became unemployed), and made the competition much tighter. Many fans do not like it, but something had to be done.

I do not have an answer for the cost of Short Range Benchrest. Since I build my own Rifles and make my own bullets, I am immune to many of the problems faced by those that do not. But my biggest problem is I run a business. While I can afford to do pretty much anything, business concerns keep me from just dropping everything and going away for several days.

That, and I am 76 years old. I use to work all day, drive all night, shoot all day, drive back all night ready for Monday.

That ain’t near as much fun as it used to be.

 

[jackieschmidt]

From my point of view, after years of talking to guys and trying to figure out why BR doesnt grow like other games my opinion is it has nothing to do with rules. Remember, the guys that would be potential new shooters dont even know the rules. Especially the details in the rules. At best they have a rough idea how the game is played. When a new shooter comes to me to get a rifle, I talk to them and explain the different games so they can make a decision. Many dont even know if they want to shoot F Class or BR. So the way to get new shooters in my opinion is to make the game look fun to the new crowd. It’s that simple.

Alex, as part of the NBRSA mentoring program, i have “mentored” several shooters. I try to instill in them some realistic expectations as to what can be involved, more or less getting them past all of the bull sh-t and headed in the right direction.

Since we have a thriving Club Match program at Tomball along with two NBRSA Registered VFS Matches, that is what most want to shoot. Several have joined the NBRSA, but shoot very few “away” Matches.

The primary reason is cost…….Of everything.

 

[afrench]

You don't remove points from the past nor do you take anything away that has already been earned.

That's not the problem I see. Future National championships will be awarding least at 4 fewer HOF points per year because there is one less class.
1 for the 100 yard winner
1 for the 200 yard winner
2 for the grand agg winner
and, 2 more for the three gun winner, if i remember correctly.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Alex, as part of the NBRSA mentoring program, i have “mentored” several shooters. I try to instill in them some realistic expectations as to what can be involved, more or less getting them past all of the bull sh-t and headed in the right direction.

Since we have a thriving Club Match program at Tomball along with two NBRSA Registered VFS Matches, that is what most want to shoot. Several have joined the NBRSA, but shoot very few “away” Matches.

The primary reason is cost…….Of everything.

I believe cost is a factor but I think time is even a bigger one to newer/younger people, with jobs and family responsibilities. And, you very much have to want to do it. My boat story was very true. If someone can afford a $40K+ bass boat, a nice truck and $10/gal gas at the lake, they can afford BR...but they have to want to do it bad enough to justify the outlay of the money it takes to get started. Not to mention the travel and expenses to be competitive at it. Clearly, it's about will to do it and choices about how they wish to spend their time and money.

 

[BoydAllen]

As an outsider looking in (I have a short range BR rifle, but do not compete), it strikes me as very weird that there are two very similar classes. Take that for what it's worth.

And if you want two cents on why people don't pick up BR, I think a big one is that the perception is that it's extremely expensive. Like needing multiple barrels, $500 dies, etc, etc. I think one of the reasons F Class grew so rapidly is that it was easy to get into and you didn't have to spend a ton. That's still mostly true, but the proliferation of ultra-expesnive gear like AMPs, idods, $3000 scopes, and the like are changing that perception. That said, anecdotally, F class does not seem to be growing as much anymore. I think that's partly due to actual cost, and the perception of cost. But you can have fun shooting a 3/4 minute rifle in F class, and even beat some people shooting proper customs. I can think of tons of people who show up with a sub par rifle, get hooked, and jump in with a custom the next season. Happens all the time.

You can't do that in BR. The barrier to entry is high for BR, and the perception is that you need a 2nd mortgage to compete at the top.

And to be honest, there's also a stereotype perception that it's a bunch of old men who bicker like bitter housewives at the PTA. I think I remember a Precision Shooting article years ago that was a funny parody of that stereotype. I have found this stereotype to be largely untrue - at least no worse than other disciplines - but it is what it is.

You need one rifle with one barrel, that weighs no more than 10 1/2 lb. As far as $500 dies go, I have no idea where you got that from. I would say that you might want to try it, to get a better feel for what is actually required. When discussing what is needed for short range group benchrest with someone who has not tried it, there are typically two areas that give them pause, buying a set of flags and stands (given that they have never used them) and getting set up to load at the range. (which can generally be done with equipment they already have)

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

That's not the problem I see. Future National championships will be awarding least at 4 fewer HOF points per year because there is one less class.
1 for the 100 yard winner
1 for the 200 yard winner
2 for the grand agg winner
and, 2 more for the three gun winner, if i remember correctly.

Fewer clubs having matches may well have an even bigger affect, IMO. Change never suits everybody so do it or don't do it. I can tell you for a fact that the two biggest reasons I don't shoot more group are simply range availability vs score and that I'd need to build a 10.5lb gun. That's it. Nothing else really. I'm not gonna drive 4-6 hours further, while driving right by a score match on the way. Not gonna do it. I can shoot several score matches within 3hrs of home, just about every weekend and be home by dark or so from any of those. To each their own but the games and equipment are too similar to drive past a match to keep driving to a group match a few hours down the rd. I hope that makes sense to people and speaks to the root problem with group. Nothing against the game or the people involved but they are less range friendly, making availability and accessibility to new shooters a bigger factor than I think some people view it as being. Without ranges and people to run matches, there are no matches ....and no HOF points either fwiw.

 

[afrench]

Fewer clubs having matches may well have an even bigger affect, IMO. Change never suits everybody so do it or don't do it. I can tell you for a fact that the two biggest reasons I don't shoot more group are simply range availability vs score and that I'd need to build a 10.5lb gun. That's it. Nothing else really. I'm not gonna drive 4-6 hours further, while driving right by a score match on the way. Not gonna do it. I can shoot several score matches within 3hrs of home, just about every weekend and be home by dark or so from any of those. To each their own but the games and equipment are too similar to drive past a match to keep driving to a group match a few hours down the rd. I hope that makes sense to people and speaks to the root problem with group. Nothing against the game or the people involved but they are less range friendly, making availability and accessibility to new shooters a bigger factor than I think some people view it as being. Without ranges and people to run matches, there are no matches ....and no HOF points either fwiw.

Yeah, in my part of the world, its the opposite. In the Texas panhandle and within about 5 hours drive of here, group is the dominant short range discipline for registered matches.

 

[dcali]

You need one rifle with one barrel, that weighs no more than 10 1/2 lb. As far as $500 dies go, I have no idea where you got that from. I would say that you might want to try it, to get a better feel for what is actually required. When discussing what is needed for short range group benchrest with someone who has not tried it, there are typically two areas that give them pause, buying a set of flags and stands (given that they have never used them) and getting set up to load at the range. (which can generally be done with equipment they already have)

Oh, I don't think you need $500 dies and a pile of barrels at all. But it is a perception I've run across fairly often. I think people hear stories/myths like "<fill in name of HOF shooter> has 50 barrels" or stuff like that. For whatever reason, people seem to think that BR is exceedingly expensive. I'm noticing htat creep into F class too. People think they need an AMP or an Autotrickler to compete. It's an unfortunate trend.

 

[Dimner]

As an outsider looking in (I have a short range BR rifle, but do not compete), it strikes me as very weird that there are two very similar classes. Take that for what it's worth.

And if you want two cents on why people don't pick up BR, I think a big one is that the perception is that it's extremely expensive. Like needing multiple barrels, $500 dies, etc, etc. I think one of the reasons F Class grew so rapidly is that it was easy to get into and you didn't have to spend a ton. That's still mostly true, but the proliferation of ultra-expesnive gear like AMPs, idods, $3000 scopes, and the like are changing that perception. That said, anecdotally, F class does not seem to be growing as much anymore. I think that's partly due to actual cost, and the perception of cost. But you can have fun shooting a 3/4 minute rifle in F class, and even beat some people shooting proper customs. I can think of tons of people who show up with a sub par rifle, get hooked, and jump in with a custom the next season. Happens all the time.

You can't do that in BR. The barrier to entry is high for BR, and the perception is that you need a 2nd mortgage to compete at the top.

And to be honest, there's also a stereotype perception that it's a bunch of old men who bicker like bitter housewives at the PTA. I think I remember a Precision Shooting article years ago that was a funny parody of that stereotype. I have found this stereotype to be largely untrue - at least no worse than other disciplines - but it is what it is.

I know this is an oldish thread, but this is a very well articulated point that resonates with me.

Price is my #1 barrier to entry. Sure I probably can swing a $1800 off the shelf rig from savage or a used rig, but I have 2 kids in college and I'm not going to spend that kind of money on myself. And the rifle isn't even half the cost of the rest of the setup needed. So trying to build something for less is a big barrier for entry. I feel like I'm trying to build an indy car on a go-cart budget. I can't show up to a shoot with a go-cart can I?

Bit man oh man, I DO want to play. I wish there was a soup to nuts beginner setup that could get someone started and they only have to worry about trigger time.

But if we take a step back, maybe there is just too high of expectations for this sport? I mean from a beginners perspective. Beginners see the scores, groups and aggs being talked about. Then they do their research and find out anything under $1k is going to shoot 4x worse if they are lucky. Again, building a go-cart but trying to race with people who spend indy car money. Add to it is the age old question, am I even going to stick with it?

This forum is a great resource and has many contributing fellas who know exactly what a shooter needs to be competitive and what a shooter will upgrade to after they get bit by the bug. Buy once, cry once. That's great advice. But there are some of us who will just never buy once and walk away.

So perhaps if those expectations are managed, a soup to nuts setup under 1k isn't so unreasonable? Maybe I'll make a project out of that!

I'm that guy that F class and BR formats have not convinced yet to play. I'm 46 and I feel like I'm the prime demographic of 'new blood' for this sport.

 

[jelenko]

I think what you're looking for is a Factory Class rifle - https://internationalbenchrest.com/...S Factory Class Rules 2020 revised 020720.pdf

Even so, to be competitive you'd need to bed the rifle => I'm thinking the rifle itself is going to be more than 1K - but, maybe not much. Then, there is the front and rear rest and scope.

 

[JEFFPPC]

So you win a big match, you get Hall Of Fame Points, you set a record. You did good, enjoy it. But really, you and probably a couple dozen people in the world care. And half of those are jealous because it's you not them. Has your club held any type of seminar day to help new guys gets started. Have you in the last 3 years given more than a passing answer to make a new guy competitive. Or are you just worried about you, your achievements. Do you help run a match, score, get targets ready. Those who do give up just watching the flags and cleaning between relays to be more competitive. Or....are you just a taker.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Going back to the original question that the original post asked.

At the just completed Super Shoot, which had a good turnout, it would be interesting to know how many shooters used an actual Heavy Varmint in the 13.5 lb class, or simply just shot their 10.5 pound Light Varmint?

I took an impromptu survey at the Texas State Light Varmint/Sporter at New Braunfels two weeks ago, and not one shooter shot a “Sporter”. The vast majority simply shot the same Light Varmint Rifle for the entire event.