Should LV and HV Classes Be Merged?

[D Coots]

I went to matches and found out how good I wasn't. I shoot against myself. I realized I just didn't have what it takes,but I have still learned a lot in the past 15 yrs on shooting 6PPC. I have learned more about reloading.tuning,and shooting over wind flags since I got my PPC's. I thoroughly enjoy the challenge.
Good luck in what ever you decide........stay safe.

Most expect instant success. Most short range shooters are willing to share advise, unlike some say. You need to speak with them at the right time.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You will need to re-read what I wrote. I all want to be is competitive against new shooters.

So yeah, if I can't do that, why would I play?

I started in 2007. I shot at a range where 7 of the top 11 in the IBS points that year were regulars there, so the competition was top shelf. I didn't win a single match but I was competitive in a short period with several 4th-10th place finishes and I won a few the next year. Not great but not bad either. I did it on a tight budget with used equipment and a Shadetree front rest top and doing my own builds and bbl work, re-bedding and re-barrelling a 1993 Stolle Teddy. 12 years later I won a national championship and I've seen people do it in only a few years. So yes, it can be done and your level of competitiveness has more to do with how much work you are willing and able to put into it than anything else. I didn't say it was easy but if you want it, you can be very competitive. You have to want it. Losing drives some people to work harder and it drives some people out of it, altogether. If you want instant gratification, it's tough to come by in this game. I honestly think that's one reason why there are few young people involved. Patience comes with age and it comes without even knowing it. I think that's just human nature. Long term goals in this sport are not season long but lifelong in many cases and by far, the majority of competitors will never win a Nationals nor set any records. And frankly, your first goal in br should be to learn something every time you shoot and use it to improve over time. I've seen first time shooters win, believe it or not, but they often come back to reality soon and settle in to a learning pace/curve that is not a short one. The good thing is that the game is great and the people are even better. I've made friendships that will stay with me and they are some of my best friends because the people in the sport of benchrest are just great people. I can't over state that. I've been in this business for I think 24 years. For the most part, I've sent products out to people every day for that time without being paid up front. In 24 years of dealing with the br crowd, I think one person intentionally did not pay me. I just think that speaks so clearly about the people and friends you can make doing this, that you can't put a price on. If you succeed in the sport, it won't be because you out spent them but because you wanted it bad enough to put in the hard work. That's where the real money is in this sport. It's not in having the most expensive equipment. It's in components and time.

It sounds like you have the desire and you like shooting the most accurate rifles on the planet. That's what it takes to start and that will probably always be in you to do. I don't know how old you are but if you're young and expect instant success or expect to win much fast, you have a long road ahead of you and may be in it for the wrong reasons anyway. It's not like it pays a lot or anything like that. Lol! Keep your head down and test everything for yourself! The successes will come.

 

[D Coots]

Good post. No handicaps, no ribbons for all.

 

[KMart]

You will need to re-read what I wrote. I all want to be is competitive against new shooters.

That is not a very high bar to clear to start with. That is where club matches and smaller local BR events come into play. That is where you learn. That is where you find out if you really want to pursue bigger and better things.
The downside of shooting against new shooters is that none of you are schooled in the finer points of loading, shooting and equipment. You can and will pick up their bad habits. But, you have to work in that arena for a while. Then you need to branch out and start associating with shooters that really know what they are doing. That is where the learning really starts. Good shooters freely give out information. Don't be afraid to talk to them. They will go out of their way to make you better. The rest is up to you.

 

[D Coots]

Schippergreg has been following this thread. I think he's been shooting 3 years. He's doing well and ain't afraid. He's came a long way since he started. Maybe he'll get on here and speak of his experiences as a new shooter.

 

[D Coots]

This is a little long, but right on point. Well worth the read, especially today with the values we have lowered ourselves to.

Don't widen the plate.

https://www.sperrybaseballlife.com/stay-at-17-inches/

 

[Schippergreg]

Schippergreg has been following this thread. I think he's been shooting 3 years. He's doing well and ain't afraid. He's came a long way since he started. Maybe he'll get on here and speak of his experiences as a new shooter.

Thanks Dave. My first match that I attended was 3 years ago. I had bought a ppc off of the classifieds here and had done enough shooting to have a basic understanding of what I was doing. Fortunately I didn’t finish last but I was a long way from first, but I didn’t crossfire or break any range rules so it was a success. Dave and many others have been extremely helpful when it comes to tips and advice and I’m extremely grateful for all they have done to help me out.
The cost of equipment and components definitely doesn’t help with getting new blood into the sport. I shot my first match with about 6lbs of powder, just under 1000 primers and about 400 bullets as my benchrest inventory and those components were pretty much impossible to find. Fortunately now components are easier to find but are still pricey. We live in an age of wanting instant gratification, if you have a question the internet has the answer in seconds, if you want something Amazon will have it at your doorstep in a day. This isn’t a sport that someone can typically walk in and start placing near the top so shooters get discouraged fast. You’re also shooting against the best in the world so that can be intimidating but can be a good thing. Shooting against the best drives you to be competitive. Also when you do beat the best, even if it’s only on one target, you know that it’s possible that you can beat them.
I’m not sure what would be the best way to recruit more shooters into short range benchrest. Other than this website and benchrest central there’s no real information available to the general shooting public about benchrest. You could possibly do a range day where the public could come out to the range and guys could give new shooters the basics and let them shoot a couple of groups to get a taste of what benchrest is about but getting people interested enough to show up would be the hard part.

 

[D Coots]

And there it is in a nutshell. Great post. Thanks a lot for the reply.

FWIW Greg shoots both group and score.

This sport isn't for the faint of heart. It's too hard for some. There's a reason there is only 50+ people in the SR BR Hall of Fame after 50+ years.

Later
Dave

 

[Keefe300]

Can I get some history on why they chose 10.5 and 13.5 as the weight limits for light and heavy.

I like talking to the older short range benchrest guys and have heard stories of days gone by and all the ranges that once shot short range. Most of the ranges they talk about in PA are no longer hosting matches.

Reading through this thread it seems as though the stocks are an issue for making a LV rig. So that may have sparked some conversation on merging the two classes. Instead of merging why not just increase the weight, make LV 13.5 and HV 16.5 or something of the sort. Then everything stays the same and only the weight will change.

I have never participated in a short range group match, but I don’t want to see any of our shooting sports dwindled.

 

[Peterson1]

INTERNATIONAL BENCHREST SHOOTERS (IBS)
NATIONAL BENCHREST SHOOTERS ASSOCIATION (NBRSA)

Each organization's have rules/regulations regarding LV, HV, Sporter, Unlimited have qualifications for each rifle. Rules are essentially the same for both organization's.

Each year there is membership meeting at the National match.
There are discussions about any changes deemed necessary/advisable.
Regional directors and or individuals can recommend any changes.
Some changes are tried on trial basis to determine feasibility. At present one club is trying electronic targets for scoring, this will be evaluated by the board and hopefully results made available to membership.
There has been some discussion about changing the Unlimited class to shoot less targets and lowering the number of shots fired for record. This has been voted down by the membership.

There is a process to change rifle requirements for competition.
If we want to compete we must follow the rules of the organization or get them changed.

I think discussion/challenge to the status quo is healthy for any organization.

Lets not change the "Plate dimensions" or lower/raise the "Basketball whoop" without sound reasoning.

Now after saying that, at 83 years old, 5'9" tall, a little fat and full of arthritis I would like to "DUNK" a basketball. Can you all help me achieve that!!! Maybe lower the "Hoop" a little!!!!

Idea:
Bring you ideas and reasoning to the next board meeting.
Were still a democratic organization--usually!!!

CLP

 

[762plinker]

at the Arkansas shoots we have had a couple of guys with F class rifles come shoot with us when we had unlimited and heavy on Saturday. raising the wt on sporter would open a lot of rifles to be shot.

naw just shoot up a class where it fits.

 

[762plinker]

maybe all rifles go shoot ubr and all shoot the same class on different targets...that is certainly a way of comparing apples to apples.
i shoot short range group(use to shoot score) long range and real long range.
buy equipment that fits the rules do not change the rules to fit equipment. the 22lb rule is a joke as to getting fclass to join, and will just lead to new rifles being built"not as a lite gun" but a 22 lb gun.
retired fixed income

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

naw just shoot up a class where it fits.

I do think it'd be interesting if sporter was raised to 13.5 and matches promoted the class. I think in time, sporter and HV would grow. If nothing else, it would allow score shooters to shoot two classes at group matches without building a dedicated 10.5lb rifle. That's the single biggest factor to holding me back from shooting more group matches.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

maybe all rifles go shoot ubr and all shoot the same class on different targets...that is certainly a way of comparing apples to apples.
i shoot short range group(use to shoot score) long range and real long range.
buy equipment that fits the rules do not change the rules to fit equipment. the 22lb rule is a joke as to getting fclass to join, and will just lead to new rifles being built"not as a lite gun" but a 22 lb gun.
retired fixed income

I think any change should be with growing the sport as the main objective. If participation is improved, like it or not, I think it would be a good change. The sport simply needs more people. Yes, shooting UBR is a good option where there are matches reasonably nearby but that's score vs group...big change to some. Personally, I prefer score over group but I'd certainly shoot group if that's what was nearby. Just the opposite for me, in this area. But you're right that it's a good way to compare apples to apples in terms of calibers and equipment, where group is dominated by 10.5lb 6PPC's. UBR has migrated toward more 6mm's even for score, but there is a good mix of 22's, 6's and 30's..and all do well head to head. That's a big thing UBR has going for it and kinda my point in posting on this thread/subject. There's a class for just about anyone to be competitive, with whatever equipment they already have.

 

[762plinker]

I do think it'd be interesting if sporter was raised to 13.5 and matches promoted the class. I think in time, sporter and HV would grow. If nothing else, it would allow score shooters to shoot two classes at group matches without building a dedicated 10.5lb rifle. That's the single biggest factor to holding me back from shooting more group matches.

sorry i do not buy it.
i have a lite 10.5 6ppc..and i shoot my 30br score gun in the heavy class. i use to shoot my 30br in the rail matches but just fell victim to "deal too good to pass up" on a rail. i am considering building a 6br for 13.5.
play by the rules

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

sorry i do not buy it.
i have a lite 10.5 6ppc..and i shoot my 30br score gun in the heavy class. i use to shoot my 30br in the rail matches but just fell victim to "deal too good to pass up" on a rail. i am considering building a 6br for 13.5.
play by the rules

What don't you agree with? Loosening the weight for a class can only allow more people. It's less restrictive. By definition, that eliminates fewer people. Existing shooters could shoot either the LV or HV in sporter, or could build a dedicated sporter.

 

[762plinker]

I think any change should be with growing the sport as the main objective. If participation is improved, like it or not, I think it would be a good change. The sport simply needs more people. Yes, shooting UBR is a good option where there are matches reasonably nearby but that's score vs group...big change to some. Personally, I prefer score over group but I'd certainly shoot group if that's what was nearby. Just the opposite for me, in this area. But you're right that it's a good way to compare apples to apples in terms of calibers and equipment, where group is dominated by 10.5lb 6PPC's. UBR has migrated toward more 6mm's even for score, but there is a good mix of 22's, 6's and 30's..and all do well head to head. That's a big thing UBR has going for it and kinda my point in posting on this thread/subject. There's a class for just about anyone to be competitive, with whatever equipment they already have.

do not get me wrong...i have no use for ubr.
THERE IS NO SPORT I KNOW OF WHERE TEAMS USE DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT OR DIFFERENT SIZE GOAL TO MAKE THE EVENT "FAIR"
IMHO this is like kids soccer were everyone gets a participation trophy......
YOU CANNOT COMPARE 2 SHOOTERS...they were not shooting at the same targets...bs

 

[762plinker]

What don't you agree with? Loosening the weight for a class can only allow more people. It's less restrictive. By definition, that eliminates fewer people.

bs....then lets have no weight limit and no caliber limit and no brake limit.
play by the rules or play elsewhere.
you have an OPINION weight will change things, you have no facts and no proof.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

do not get me wrong...i have no use for ubr.
THERE IS NO SPORT I KNOW OF WHERE TEAMS USE DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT OR DIFFERENT SIZE GOAL TO MAKE THE EVENT "FAIR"
IMHO this is like kids soccer were everyone gets a participation trophy......
YOU CANNOT COMPARE 2 SHOOTERS...they were not shooting at the same targets...bs

It's fine that you feel that way but I think I've asked you this before but I'll ask again...Have you ever shot UBR? If not, you don't know anything, and you're being very direct and rude about something you know nothing about.

 

[762plinker]

It's fine that you feel that way but I think I've asked you this before but I'll ask again...Have you ever shot UBR? If not, you don't know anything, and you're being very direct and rude about something you know nothing about.

i do not NEED to shoot ubr.
it is clear they do not believe in the best shooter wins...
it is a handicap match...
i understand some may think that some shooting is better than none, but in this case i disagree.
i shoot head to head 50 to 2000 yards in BENCHREST CLASSES by the book.
there is no handicap in basketball, in football, in soccer, in real benchrest, in baseball.