Rail Guns at 600 yard BR

[Joe Salt]

Walt I didn't know you shot in school, that's why your a tough competitor! You guys in PA. had it made. We could leave the guns in our cars but no such luck as to have a coach to teach us to shoot. I was self taught, but I started hunting at 14 and started 1000 yard at 26 years old. And I've been interested ever since. Didn't need anyone holding my hand and can say to this day I love shooting. I think it has to be part of your person. So I say bring on the big guns I love it.

joe Salt

 

[CaptainMal]

That post from Pa with the 100 10X was a great memory for me. I was the head coach of the Penn Hills Rifle Team for decades. That was a large High School just east of Pittsburgh. We had tournaments all over Western Pennsylvania in the 70's to 90's. Before that there as a full State Championship. For many Summers I sponsored a visiting High School outdoor competition at Greensburg Sportsman's Club.

Literally hundreds and hundreds of people were my students with thousands in Pennsylvania enjoying the experience. Many kids got college admission and scholarship from our programs. Even today - over 20 years since my retirement and leaving the area, I still get contacted by former rifle team members, some into their 60's.

Many times students brought their own rifles to school. It was a big nothing that drew no attention. I even had rifles in the classrooms for demonstration and instruction purposes. Again, never even thought there was a problem. Well, until the mid-1990's when things started to really change. Teams folded under community pressure. We folded when the High School got torn down where the range was. The new one and the community has nothing to do with anything like this today. It was the end of an era and a way of life.

When I attended High School inside Oakland, near the University of Pittsburgh at Central Catholic, we brought guns to school as part of the hunting club. Same with my college experience. Worked in a gun shop to pay tuition and had guns right in school at Slippery Rock. Competition has changed and sure have our methods of shooting instruction for young people.

100 10X is a perfect score for 50ft. small bore competition. You do it and we decorate the walls of the range with your decorated targets. Those were the days.

 

[Joe Salt]

CaptainMal And what is amazing, Not one of them turned into school shooters!

Joe Salt

 

[CaptainMal]

CaptainMal And what is amazing, Not one of them turned into school shooters!

Joe Salt

Don't know what a "school shooter" is. All my students shot in school and on away matches at high schools over much of Pennsylvania. When graduated many went and shot for their college teams. Many more shoot at local clubs all over the country. One woman doctor in California used to recant to me her shooting experiences and how she passed on some of those skills to her children and others.

Lots and lots of people benefitted from the shooting experiences provided by many high schools in Pennsylvania. Actually, the shooting community of the U.S. profited.

 

[WIB3]

Walt I didn't know you shot in school, that's why your a tough competitor! You guys in PA. had it made. We could leave the guns in our cars but no such luck as to have a coach to teach us to shoot. I was self taught, but I started hunting at 14 and started 1000 yard at 26 years old. And I've been interested ever since. Didn't need anyone holding my hand and can say to this day I love shooting. I think it has to be part of your person. So I say bring on the big guns I love it.

joe Salt

Yes Joe I started at an early age. I was never one for team sports. I personally liked the idea that if I got beat I had nobody to blame but myself. Captain was absolutely right, we would pin our 100’s on the wall in the range. Was bragging rights. At Penn State I shot with the ROTC team. Was 3 position. Got out of College and the shooting just stopped, I was addicted but had no where to compete. That is when I met Lowell A. In today’s liberal atmosphere, youth don’t have the experience to complete against their self. The ability to control breathing, heart rate and trigger control is often scoffed at in today’s world. I use to take my Winchester 52D home on the school bus to clean it at home. Imagine that today. Our youth today challenge themselves by how many words they can text in one min.Sad.

 

[WIB3]

That post from Pa with the 100 10X was a great memory for me. I was the head coach of the Penn Hills Rifle Team for decades. That was a large High School just east of Pittsburgh. We had tournaments all over Western Pennsylvania in the 70's to 90's. Before that there as a full State Championship. For many Summers I sponsored a visiting High School outdoor competition at Greensburg Sportsman's Club.

Literally hundreds and hundreds of people were my students with thousands in Pennsylvania enjoying the experience. Many kids got college admission and scholarship from our programs. Even today - over 20 years since my retirement and leaving the area, I still get contacted by former rifle team members, some into their 60's.

Many times students brought their own rifles to school. It was a big nothing that drew no attention. I even had rifles in the classrooms for demonstration and instruction purposes. Again, never even thought there was a problem. Well, until the mid-1990's when things started to really change. Teams folded under community pressure. We folded when the High School got torn down where the range was. The new one and the community has nothing to do with anything like this today. It was the end of an era and a way of life.

When I attended High School inside Oakland, near the University of Pittsburgh at Central Catholic, we brought guns to school as part of the hunting club. Same with my college experience. Worked in a gun shop to pay tuition and had guns right in school at Slippery Rock. Competition has changed and sure have our methods of shooting instruction for young people.

100 10X is a perfect score for 50ft. small bore competition. You do it and we decorate the walls of the range with your decorated targets. Those were the days.

CaptainMal, I shot high school in the Lancaster/Lebanon league. Our school district had decided that .22’s were dangerous and the league switched to air guns. The Winchester’s were sold at a local gun shop for peanuts. Fortunately I was able to purchase my gun I competed with for 4 years. It is a pristine 52D single shot. Still shoots fantastic, in fact at 57 years of age, better than what I am capable of. Oh well.

 

[dkhunt14]

CaptainMal, I shot high school in the Lancaster/Lebanon league. Our school district had decided that .22’s were dangerous and the league switched to air guns. The Winchester’s were sold at a local gun shop for peanuts. Fortunately I was able to purchase my gun I competed with for 4 years. It is a pristine 52D single shot. Still shoots fantastic, in fact at 57 years of age, better than what I am capable of. Oh well.

Wow, you went to college. I don't know that. Matt

 

[CaptainMal]

Thanks for the recent comments. I used to teach "shooting between the heartbeats" and a breath program with proper trigger-break timing. Each time I shoot and on every shot I force myself to just shoot the fundamentals I taught.

Sure does not seem like on benchrest those fundamentals would be effective. Not true. I cannot make the time and spend the money to have the best and most tuned equipment on the line. Not even close. When I observe other shooters it is quite shocking to me that they violate my basic fundamentals with their technique. Mark Niezabitowski is a local shooter who, right now, is leading the IBS SOY points - mostly because the shoots are stopped. He used to repeatedly violate simple things, even like follow-through techniques.

Well I am a miserable coach. Used to rip him a new one and near force him, with demonstration and learning technique, to do things right. Today he is quite good and competitive using an old Savage rifle against the best of the best. Today he has a custom rifle on order from Alex Wheeler and has really honed his technique. Just think it is quality fundamentals that separate the ordinary from the best. I have watched Bart Sauter and his repeated technique doing it right.

There is no substitute for fundamentals and those high school programs sure taught a lifetime of them.

 

[Mulligan]

A picture of a heavier wider rail that will handle larger calibers. Jay said adding a trigger guard is not a problem.

I think it would be super handy to be able to pull your straight 1.25 or 1.45 barreled action out of your rifle and pop it into a rail and to test. This is good stuff.
CW

 

[Mulligan]

Once you have a rifle tuned, if you pulled the barreled action off the rifle and installed it in the rail, I assume you could re tune the powder charge and be good to go. Any reason to think this is a bad assumption?
CW

 

[jackieschmidt]

Since this thread morphed into the subject of getting more shooters, I guess I will Chime in.

We had this very discussion at the Members Meeting at last years NBRSA Nationals in Phoenix. How to attract more shooters.

Many suggestions were offered, the truth being, most had already been tried.

I told the group that at Tomball Gun Club, we had tried several things. Our Club Match Program, where we shoot score, has been pretty successful over the past 12 years. The problem is only a minute number will shoot in Registered Matches. So the question becomes why?

The expense seems to be the single biggest factor. Example......Last year I was at the range practicing, I had all of my Rifles. I was shooting my Rail when several of the 4H kids and their sponsor came down to take a look. I gave them a run down on what the game was all about, even let two of the young men sit down with my Rail and shoot a group. I coached them on watching the conditions as the flags moved back and forth.

They were amazed. Until they took a look in my truck, on my loading bench, the flags, everything that it took to be a competitive shooter. You could see the air go out of the balloon. Good grief, all of that just to shoot?
Well, yeh. You can’t stop at Academy on the way to the match and pick up a box of ammo. Everything I had at the range was needed.........If you wanted to be competitive.

So we are back to square one. We in Competitive Benchrest seem to be our own worst enemy, simply because of the way the game has evolved.

At the Nationals Discussion, there were some ideas brought up about how to make things easier. To many Competitors, that is a Red Flag. Are they talking about dumbing it down? Some very prominent shooters were quite vocal in their distain for this notion. The reason they shoot Benchrest is because it IS difficult. In short, if you want to get good at it, you have to pay the price in both money and dedication to excellence.

I have lost a lot of my love for two day matches. I’m old, and I still work for a living. Running a business simply does not allow me to just leave for three days. Things are rarely fun when all you do is stay tired all the time.

I enjoy one day matches a lot more than the regular Two Gun Format, especially Score. You go and shoot a Grand Agg, and go home. I wish some clubs had one day Group Matches. But I might be the only one wishing that.

 

[Mulligan]

Since this thread morphed into the subject of getting more shooters, I guess I will Chime in.

We had this very discussion at the Members Meeting at last years NBRSA Nationals in Phoenix. How to attract more shooters.

Many suggestions were offered, the truth being, most had already been tried.

I told the group that at Tomball Gun Club, we had tried several things. Our Club Match Program, where we shoot score, has been pretty successful over the past 12 years. The problem is only a minute number will shoot in Registered Matches. So the question becomes why?

The expense seems to be the single biggest factor. Example......Last year I was at the range practicing, I had all of my Rifles. I was shooting my Rail when several of the 4H kids and their sponsor came down to take a look. I gave them a run down on what the game was all about, even let two of the young men sit down with my Rail and shoot a group. I coached them on watching the conditions as the flags moved back and forth.

They were amazed. Until they took a look in my truck, on my loading bench, the flags, everything that it took to be a competitive shooter. You could see the air go out of the balloon. Good grief, all of that just to shoot?
Well, yeh. You can’t stop at Academy on the way to the match and pick up a box of ammo. Everything I had at the range was needed.........If you wanted to be competitive.

So we are back to square one. We in Competitive Benchrest seem to be our own worst enemy, simply because of the way the game has evolved.

At the Nationals Discussion, there were some ideas brought up about how to make things easier. To many Competitors, that is a Red Flag. Are they talking about dumbing it down? Some very prominent shooters were quite vocal in their distain for this notion. The reason they shoot Benchrest is because it IS difficult. In short, if you want to get good at it, you have to pay the price in both money and dedication to excellence.

I have lost a lot of my love for two day matches. I’m old, and I still work for a living. Running a business simply does not allow me to just leave for three days. Things are rarely fun when all you do is stay tired all the time.

I enjoy one day matches a lot more than the regular Two Gun Format, especially Score. You go and shoot a Grand Agg, and go home. I wish some clubs had one day Group Matches. But I might be the only one wishing that.

Jackie,
We at Western Colorado Rifle and Silhouette Club sponsor 10 IBS one day matches a year. We also sponsor 2 two day matches.
The older shooters (which is the majority) at our club really enjoy the one day format. We have fun at those matches, most are not SOY...... doesn't matter to most of our shooters.
CW

 

[Evan]

The expense seems to be the single biggest factor. Example......Last year I was at the range practicing, I had all of my Rifles. I was shooting my Rail when several of the 4H kids and their sponsor came down to take a look. I gave them a run down on what the game was all about, even let two of the young men sit down with my Rail and shoot a group. I coached them on watching the conditions as the flags moved back and forth.

They were amazed. Until they took a look in my truck, on my loading bench, the flags, everything that it took to be a competitive shooter. You could see the air go out of the balloon. Good grief, all of that just to shoot?
Well, yeh. You can’t stop at Academy on the way to the match and pick up a box of ammo. Everything I had at the range was needed.........If you wanted to be competitive.

That feels like telling a budding new mechanic he has to sell his soul to the SnapOn man and finance a big chest of tools to be a successful mechanic. I think you'd agree that you got all your stuff a few pieces at a time as you grew to understand their use and importance. That's the journey. I didn't start out with a chest full of tools, I started with my grandpa's little toolbox. As I needed a new tool, I added it to the box until they wouldn't fit and then went out to buy the chest to put it all in. This can and should be done with benchrest too so that the shooter isn't hopping on one foot and throwing salt over their shoulder thinking that's making them shoot smaller.

A Savage 12FV 6.5 Creedmoor in a BR stock, a bald eagle rest, a rear bag, and a box of factory match ammo the rifle likes would be entirely capable of 0.5MOA. How many novice shooters can shoot that small in anything but calm conditions at 1000 anyway? They grow from there. Perhaps more importantly, if they do spend thousands on all the gear at once and can't even keep up, how do they recover? They have no experience with which to understand where they went wrong. I don't know how to get the experienced shooters on board, but I believe a Factory class in BR would be the right way to encourage participation.

 

[dolek]

That feels like telling a budding new mechanic he has to sell his soul to the SnapOn man and finance a big chest of tools to be a successful mechanic. I think you'd agree that you got all your stuff a few pieces at a time as you grew to understand their use and importance. That's the journey. I didn't start out with a chest full of tools, I started with my grandpa's little toolbox. As I needed a new tool, I added it to the box until they wouldn't fit and then went out to buy the chest to put it all in. This can and should be done with benchrest too so that the shooter isn't hopping on one foot and throwing salt over their shoulder thinking that's making them shoot smaller.

A Savage 12FV 6.5 Creedmoor in a BR stock, a bald eagle rest, a rear bag, and a box of factory match ammo the rifle likes would be entirely capable of 0.5MOA. How many novice shooters can shoot that small in anything but calm conditions at 1000 anyway? They grow from there. Perhaps more importantly, if they do spend thousands on all the gear at once and can't even keep up, how do they recover? They have no experience with which to understand where they went wrong. I don't know how to get the experienced shooters on board, but I believe a Factory class in BR would be the right way to encourage participation.

Well said...people that have to talk about money suck the fun out of the sport . Newcomers who don't know how to read through all the BS may never give it a try because they think big bucks need to be spent to compete...heck, you don't even have to go to a competition,just try to learn as you go and have fun while you progress as a shooter.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I agree. When I started over 25 years ago in NBRSA group competition, all I had was a 40x with a PacNor barrel on it, in 6BR.

It did not take long to figure out what it took to be competitive in Short Range Benchrest,

True.........
You do not have to have a custom action.
You do not have to have a good barrel.
You do not have to shoot custom bullets
you do not have to have a good solid bench setup.
You do not have to have a 1.5 ounce trigger.
you do not have to have a custom stock that tracks perfect.
You do not have to pay a Benchrest Gunsmith to assemble a Rifle.
You do not have to have a scope that stays on POI.
You do not have to have reloading equipment that makes constant and true rounds.
You do not have to have a good set of flags.
You do not have to spend hours at the range figuring out how to make it all work.
All you have to do is show up with a rifle that meets the criteria of the class in which you wish to shoot.

 

[Drop Port]

Thanks for the recent comments. I used to teach "shooting between the heartbeats" and a breath program with proper trigger-break timing. Each time I shoot and on every shot I force myself to just shoot the fundamentals I taught.

Sure does not seem like on benchrest those fundamentals would be effective. Not true. I cannot make the time and spend the money to have the best and most tuned equipment on the line. Not even close. When I observe other shooters it is quite shocking to me that they violate my basic fundamentals with their technique. Mark Niezabitowski is a local shooter who, right now, is leading the IBS SOY points - mostly because the shoots are stopped. He used to repeatedly violate simple things, even like follow-through techniques.

Well I am a miserable coach. Used to rip him a new one and near force him, with demonstration and learning technique, to do things right. Today he is quite good and competitive using an old Savage rifle against the best of the best. Today he has a custom rifle on order from Alex Wheeler and has really honed his technique. Just think it is quality fundamentals that separate the ordinary from the best. I have watched Bart Sauter and his repeated technique doing it right.

There is no substitute for fundamentals and those high school programs sure taught a lifetime of them.

This is personally the most accurate statement I've seen posted to date. It may not apply completely to all disciplines, but the fundamentals carry over. For those lucky enough to have shot high school 3-position the skills and lessons learned will last a lifetime.

 

[Rat Rifle]

^EURIKA^ There may be hope for Me to win some "wood" yet !

Thanks Jackie

 

[geo.ulrich]

That feels like telling a budding new mechanic he has to sell his soul to the SnapOn man and finance a big chest of tools to be a successful mechanic. I think you'd agree that you got all your stuff a few pieces at a time as you grew to understand their use and importance. That's the journey. I didn't start out with a chest full of tools, I started with my grandpa's little toolbox. As I needed a new tool, I added it to the box until they wouldn't fit and then went out to buy the chest to put it all in. This can and should be done with benchrest too so that the shooter isn't hopping on one foot and throwing salt over their shoulder thinking that's making them shoot smaller.

I think its apples to oranges, the mechanic investing in tools over a life time is to earn a living. B.R. is a game .....

 

[jackieschmidt]

For what it is worth, I have used 30BR barrel on my Rail Gun, and the recoil of the top slams it against the stop pretty hard.
At Seymore at the Texas a State 10 shot unlimited I shot a .265 100 yard agg.

Years ago I did a test for 6MMBR.com where I tested several different bullets of the time. I sat down at the Tomball 200 yard line and shot a .180 agg, of five 5- shot groups.

At 600 yards at the Golden Triangle Gun Club I shot several groups measuring around 1 1/4 inches. That was with Reloader 15 and the older 108 Berger VLD.

As for the question of whether a Rail will actually shoot better than a bag gun? The Rail will allow you to shoot faster, and does remove bag handling errors. But that’s about it.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

To any shooter who is interested. We will be shooting any and all rail guns in our Outlaw BR 1KUnlimited class here at Cool Acres Ga.
Matches will resume in September after it cools down.
Only 3 tules
1) must be safe
2) under 50 cal
3) Must be Fum
Check it out at

Www.coolacerssportingcamp.com