Rail Guns at 600 yard BR

[Kevin57]

George,

Your long tenure and experience in this game is well known. Your opinion is also important and has the benefit of that experience. My question is; what then do we do? We must bring new blood into the game. There is no magic bullet. If we are not catching fish we must change the bait or change ponds. Doing nothing insures the decline of BR. Clearly we can market via the Internet or via Club website that was not possible in the past. Perhaps a consistent message by the IBS or NBRSA would be helpful. Doing nothing is not an option. I think respectfully, we can only go forward with a new message, the past does not preordain the future. Thoughts everyone?

K

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The club gun was a good thing for picking up a few locals that already thought they might like to shoot BR. We did pick up a few that have been coming back. It burned out the guys working with the gun and the request dried up to shoot it. So it ended up with one of the last guys to shoot it and he will be shooting it this year if we ever get back to shooting. I think in a more populated area its a good way to pick up one or 2 a year. But it has to get passed around because its work to keep it tuned and loaded and no doubt it will hurt that shooters season a little. That however is not the answer to the big picture. There are sports like PRS or F Class that are quite popular and well known. Br is very misunderstood. A documentary of a real match and how its shot is needed. Put it on youtube, so guys can link it all over the place when question come up. Now on other sites you have guys saying stuff thats 20 years out of date or flat out wrong, and it drives people away. Most guys think its just sitting at a bench pulling the trigger on a machine and that zero skill is involved and anyone who can afford the gear will do well. On other sites when a question is asked about what action or barrel or scope I should buy comes up they often refer them to the PRS equipment lists. This is "precision" shooting to the average shooter. They just have never been exposed to actual precision rifles. I worry about this because its seems we are starting to race to the bottom with some of our equipment, and if sub par stuff is praised and those using it are not picky enough to pick it apart, and be a pain in the ass of the manufacturer to get it fixed, we will loose the good stuff that we do have.

 

[geo.ulrich]

Kevin, I wish I had a answer for you but I don't. other than try and get friends or family interested. without breaking the bank...
Alex, there are a few youtube videos from sr the world championships come to mind and ubr nationals a few years ago...

 

[geo.ulrich]

Let me add some thoughts. when I started trued remingtons were pretty well the majority of receivers on the line. There were a few Stolles and Halls just starting to get a hold. straitening rem.'s was fairly easy and cheap enough. then came glued on sleeves then shrinking sleeves then we got into straitening bolts. at this point it was easier to buy a custom action albeit alittle more $$$ but easier. next reworking scopes not freezing but fixing. then came better scopes alittle more $$$ but easier. Now we are to the point where we are reworking custom actions to straiten them more $$$. but better. I'm not even going to touch on reloading or components or travel. BR is expensive its where it has evolved to, whether for better or worse. This is the problem for which I have no answer......

 

[geo.ulrich]

And here are some comparisons first price will be early to mid 80's second will be now... trued remington with sleeve shrunk on with integral scope rings 450$ a bat today 1350ish.... a brown precision stock 150$ plus 50 glued today a carbon fiber glued 1200 ish ... a 2 oz trigger hart or shilen 50$ today a bix 350$ ... s.s. barrel blank 150 or if you bought 10 100 each today 335ish .... A new leupold 36 x 250$ a march 2250$ ish ... hart rest 99$ now farley or seb pushing 1000$ chamber job 75$ now 250 ish ... sr bullets 70$ per k now i'm guessing here 280- 300 ....if you compare everything is increasing about the same except scopes, stocks and rests which are about 10 x increase others seem to be 3 x which would figure about right .....

 

[Dave Way]

Ya its come up, the whole tunnel thing too, ext, ext. I think after the Nats where held here much of that went away. The reason so many records fall here is due to the work and effort put in. No tricks. All I expect from anyone is to have some 1st hand experience behind their mouth. Jim, if you ever choose to come, Im sure we can pool up and cover your expenses.

I had the opportunity to drive 33 hours to shoot in your “Tunnel” for Nationals. Wind just like everywhere else I shoot and it was extremely switchy. The things the wind does when it hits the banks from the other perpendicular ranges would take some time to figure out. Add in 102 degrees along with the accompanying mirage and the word challenging is an understatement.

All of you who shoot there regularly, deserve even more credit than you get. The targets and aggregates you guys shoot are simply amazing. A “Tunnel” it is not.

Dave.

 

[bcarico]

Yes there are two new Long Range IBS classes Factory and Tactical class. Factory is well you guessed it.. for factory rifles. These rifles can be bedded, have a brake installed, and trigger work (not trigger replacement). We have been shooting this class for a few years as a club class at Hawks Ridge and have definitely gained shooters from it. The other class Tactical is for guys with PRS style built rifles, they can feed from a mag and also run their suppressors.
I also think the format we shoot (2 target plus shoot-off) really helps with people wanting to shoot more. We had right at 90 shooters at the first match of 2019 and averaged about 55 shooters per match last season. We really try and make new shooters feel welcomed, if you have been to a match you’d see we cut up and carry on and have a really good time. We are also seeing a lot of the new shooters are younger guys. I’m not trying to point fingers, but come on guys I have shot all up and down the east coast and the worst thing about going most places is guys sitting around in their little circle of friends and the new guy over twiddling his thumbs. When ya see a new guy at a match talk to him, make him feel welcomed. So he will “want” to come back. It seems like most guys are in some big hurry to pack up and leave. The camaraderie is what got a lot of us hooked in the first place. Have your match then break some bread have fun, talk, socialize. Don’t just have a match have an event.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yes there are two new Long Range IBS classes Factory and Tactical class. Factory is well you guessed it.. for factory rifles. These rifles can be bedded, have a brake installed, and trigger work (not trigger replacement). We have been shooting this class for a few years as a club class at Hawks Ridge and have definitely gained shooters from it. The other class Tactical is for guys with PRS style built rifles, they can feed from a mag and also run their suppressors.
I also think the format we shoot (2 target plus shoot-off) really helps with people wanting to shoot more. We had right at 90 shooters at the first match of 2019 and averaged about 55 shooters per match last season. We really try and make new shooters feel welcomed, if you have been to a match you’d see we cut up and carry on and have a really good time. We are also seeing a lot of the new shooters are younger guys. I’m not trying to point fingers, but come on guys I have shot all up and down the east coast and the worst thing about going most places is guys sitting around in their little circle of friends and the new guy over twiddling his thumbs. When ya see a new guy at a match talk to him, make him feel welcomed. So he will “want” to come back. It seems like most guys are in some big hurry to pack up and leave. The camaraderie is what got a lot of us hooked in the first place. Have your match then break some bread have fun, talk, socialize. Don’t just have a match have an event.

2 targets aint much for a guy driving a few hours or more- especially when he gets blown off target, gets a dq, and dont even get to the prize table.

 

[bcarico]

2 targets aint much for a guy driving a few hours or more- especially when he gets blown off target, gets a dq, and dont even get to the prize table.

We sure have saw a big crowd match after match since switching too it. Lots of people speculate on the internet, the proof in in the pudding so to speak.

 

[Evan]

So I just want to share my experience here, since it is germane to the topic being discussed:

I'm in my early 30s, I've been shooting since I was 5 or 6. My grandpa and dad taught me. My uncle (on my dad's side) taught me how to reload and introduced me to the pursuit of accuracy. They were primarily hunters, not target shooters. I like to shoot targets, and I like to shoot small groups and I've been chasing that ever since. I had occasionally read about BR here and looked at the CRC website for events, but never really decided to go. I didn't know anyone, and it was a longer drive to get there vs my usual spot out in the grasslands. It was just a bit uncomfortable feeling. Jaime on the board here noticed my shooting result posts and invited me out to an informal 600yd match at CRC and that provided enough motivation for me to try it.

I enjoyed it, but there were about 10 shooters there and it was generally pretty low energy. What I mean by that was Nate, the match director, had been holding these matches for a while and was obviously feeling a bit worn out and most of the other "regulars" seemed similarly defeated. I came back for another 1000yd match and had similar experience with even less people showing up. Revitalizing the group and getting a little excitement going will be important to keeping new people around and interested. I like shooting LR and I like shooting small groups, and to most of my friends' and my wife's confusion, I like sitting in the basement fussing over loads and planning my next experiment. I'd like to think that I'm already in the door, from a interest and personality standpoint. I'm giving this season a go again and will try to make all the LR BR matches held at CRC, but I can't say that I came away from last year feeling excited about shooting there again.

@Mulligan - I want to try to make it to a match out there this year. Have to see how this whole COVID situation pans out, but I'd be interested in checking it out!

@Alex Wheeler - I had a friend just move up to Ronan and my wife and I are thinking about taking a road trip to go visit them and maybe stop by Deep Creek on a match weekend. Gotta see how schedules work out but who's a good person to contact, and can I just show up with my rifle? If it ends up not on a match weekend, I'd still like to meet you and some of the other guys in that area if we can work something out.

I know of no one in my peer group who cares to dedicate themselves to this level. All my shooting friends like to buy an "accurate" rifle off the shelf, pick up some factory match ammo and go bang steel at various ranges. It's hard to tell if PRS is made for them, or if it was just marketed very successfully to them. Regardless, I don't think they could be swayed into BR by any means because it's too time consuming and fussy.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

PM sent

 

[CaptainMal]

New shooters come to BR from things like PRC and factory rifle. They come as they age. You know we ALL do. It is not my fault I am over 75. Blame nature but all the PRC shooters will age, slow down but still want to shoot.

Well, here we are. That does not mean all BR shooters are old. SavageDasher, a banned older shooter that used to be on this forum, brings multiple younger shooters to the line by loaning out his rifles with ammo. At Manatee today we have two younger shooters that continue with us, seem to have fun, bring their parents who also seem to have fun.

I do not think BR shooters should be all 'doom and gloom". Nature will bring on more shooters, mentors and those with an open attitude who are helpful will also help.

FYI...After writing an SOP for Coronavirus regulations on the range and emailing our Manatee BR shooters last night, we are having a fun club shoot this coming Saturday. Limiting the shooters, spacing out bench usage and limiting how many can actually be around, it should be fun. That is what we want, right?

 

[roklock]

I'll jump in, I've been shooting competitions of some form for the last 25 years most of that being handguns. I have left that behind for the challenge of LR rifle competitions. For me it isn't the class that will bring me to a match it is the number of shots. The one thing that I want to do is shoot, I don't want to drive 1 1/2-2 hours or more to shoot 20 shots.

I tried FClass last year and liked it. I also tried and liked a local ground hog shoot that goes to 500 yards. I am planning on doing both again this year and actually had a LG built this winter for the GH matches this year and hopefully a few 1000 yard BR matches (hopefully). I found one that shoots two "matches" in one day, so counting sighter's and scoring rounds it could be 30-35 shots. Of course it could be more if I would get into a shoot-off but I'm sure I have a steep learning curve first.

I will be the first to admit I don't know how many shots are in a IBS or NBRSA match just giving you my view point. Would definitely be interested in trying the 600 yard matches, if there any in my "area", with my LG.

 

[CaptainMal]

In an IBS match for one class you shoot 20 shots for score. Now hold on...you have a 6 minute sight-in period to shoot. Then between the four targets you get a 2 minute sighter period. Do it in both weight classes and you shoot maybe 80 shots per day.

Our fun shooters at the 600 club shoots get six targets. Then they keep their best four for the competition and all 6 can be used for the "Closest to the X" prize. We do that because we want people to get in some shots.

 

[Stan Taylor]

In an IBS match for one class you shoot 20 shots for score. Now hold on...you have a 6 minute sight-in period to shoot. Then between the four targets you get a 2 minute sighter period. Do it in both weight classes and you shoot maybe 80 shots per day.

Our fun shooters at the 600 club shoots get six targets. Then they keep their best four for the competition and all 6 can be used for the "Closest to the X" prize. We do that because we want people to get in some shots.

The fun shooters that shoots six targets they're not shooting a sanctioned IBS match correct.

 

[WIB3]

This is not a cheap sport, when I started in 1989 I was able to build my first gun in my basement for under $500 dollars. It was built on a Interarms Mark X action which cost $200. Got a used barrel, and built my own clunker wood stock. Was chambered in 300 Win Mag. Shot 14-20” at Williamsport. Not even remotely competitive but had a lot of fun, also frustrated. I shot competitively in high school and College. Was the next step. With school programs dropping competitive shooting and our current liberal thinking the outcome doesn’t look good. I was county and 2 time state champion at 50’ prone. In college I qualified distinguished champion in 3 position. Unfortunately our new generation has not yet experienced the satisfaction of succeeding on their own. This is not a team sport. My old school banned guns in school, the shooting program has been disbanded. Thinking we need to focus on the very young who have parents that have open minds. Shooting a 100-10x is quite an accomplishment, still an Olympic sport.

 

[WIB3]

Shooting at 50’ or 1000yds is no different. It’s all about beating yourself.

 

[WIB3]

Unfortunately one can’t complete in this sport on an IPhone. Sad but unfortunately true.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Shooting a lot is one of the great things about short range BR
Typical match is 2 days with a practice day or two before the match
100 on Saturday 200 on Sunday 20 five shot groups plus sighters and practice days easy to shoot several hundred rounds
Perfect for the ones that like to shoot a lot by Sunday afternoon you won’t feel like shooting for a day or two

 

[CaptainMal]

The fun shooters that shoots six targets they're not shooting a sanctioned IBS match correct.

Correct. IBS actually limits the number of shoots a club can have each year. We have ours during the winter when the weather is normally nice. It is normally in the mid-90's now and soon will come with afternoon rains. NOT good for having a shoot. Plus, the Yankees have gone north while some of our resident shooters go north to vacation.

From now until November we just have fun club activities as I bill it. We make the rules but shoot at regular IBS targets. No way will we measure all the groups and do the computer calculations. In the sanctioned IBS matches we have to pay someone $150 a day to do that. We shoot all year at essentially no extra charge except for targets and paint to cover the sighter plates.

It is fun. Only thing is right now my sign-up for this Saturday is only 9 shooters so far. The virus is stopping oh so many from attending.