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Only one factory .20 caliber cartridge...STILL?!

I spent an hour in John Nosler's office a couple of years ago, trying to convince him to bring out a factory version of the 20VT. At the end of the conversation, it was quite apparent that the company only really caters to big game hunters, and 'bigger is better' in terms of cartridges. A dinky 20VT did not stir any interest at all, much to my chagrin.

So, don't hold your breath kiddies.
Considering Nosler has invested time and money, of some amount, in their 20 Nosler and seems to have no interest, at least at this point, in bringing it to market, I'd say that pretty much tells us all we need to know and as Rick in Oregon said above, don't hold your breath for a new 20 cal happening anytime soon.

It's kind of like when the 17 WSM came out. With there already being a 17 HMR and 17 HM2 not to mention A17 17 HMR ammo that shoots 100fps faster, why muddy the water even further and come out with yet another 17 Rimfire with the 17 WSM.

I've said from the beginning a 20 WSM shooting something like the 24gr NTX bullet at 3000fps would have been far more popular as well as a lot less confusing. Hell, I still hear guys at the gun counters of places like Cabela's or Sportsman Warehouse that confuse the 17 WSM with A17 ammo because they heard or read about this new 17 rimfire that shoots faster and they don't understand the 17 WSM is a completely different cartridge not just faster shooting ammo. For some reason, with the exception of us that like 20 caliber wildcat builds, the 20 caliber seems to hold a rather small share of the market.
 
As the OP, I guess it’s OK to chime in.
What I would like to see is a cartridge that pushes 40 grain bullets safely in the 4000 FPS range. The .378” boltface cases are already maxed out and most anything on the .473” boltface is either too large (capacity wise) or is too short to reliably feed through a magazine. i know first-hand that manufacturers aren’t interested in cartridges that are finicky to run through box magazines.

Maybe it’s time for a cartridge based off the 6.8 SPC. While that boltface isn’t as mainstream, the Valkyrie is helping the .422” cases become (somewhat) more accepted.

Oh and since I’m dreaming, let’s ditch the 1-12” twist.
 
Sub-22 caliber cartridges niche cartridges. The 17 Rem which has been around for decades now is just barely holding on, and most manufacturers of rifles chambered for the 204 Rem are pretty much down to only one or two models chambered in that caliber. I was surprised a couple of years ago when I was talking with the production manager of Cooper and he said that the orders for 204's were practically non-existent. If you are a 20 caliber fan be glad that components can still be found for handloading, unlike the 22 calibers.

drover
 
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Who needs a mag", Single feed.
There has been a few folks that have necked down the 6.8 SPC to 22 and even 20.
I went as far as building a "6.8 BR". Turned out to be a bug hole maker without too much work. ;) Me thinks Wildcatting will NEVER die. :D
 
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As the OP, I guess it’s OK to chime in.
What I would like to see is a cartridge that pushes 40 grain bullets safely in the 4000 FPS range. The .378” boltface cases are already maxed out and most anything on the .473” boltface is either too large (capacity wise) or is too short to reliably feed through a magazine. i know first-hand that manufacturers aren’t interested in cartridges that are finicky to run through box magazines.

Maybe it’s time for a cartridge based off the 6.8 SPC. While that boltface isn’t as mainstream, the Valkyrie is helping the .422” cases become (somewhat) more accepted.

Oh and since I’m dreaming, let’s ditch the 1-12” twist.
Who needs a mag" Single feed.
There has been a few folks that have necked down the 6.8 SPC to 22 and even 20.
I went as far as building a "6.8 BR". Turned out to be a bug hole maker without too much work. ;) Me thinks Wildcatting will NEVER die. :D
20 Val seated with VLD Unmussig’s
 

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As the OP, I guess it’s OK to chime in.
What I would like to see is a cartridge that pushes 40 grain bullets safely in the 4000 FPS range. The .378” boltface cases are already maxed out and most anything on the .473” boltface is either too large (capacity wise) or is too short to reliably feed through a magazine. i know first-hand that manufacturers aren’t interested in cartridges that are finicky to run through box magazines.

Maybe it’s time for a cartridge based off the 6.8 SPC. While that boltface isn’t as mainstream, the Valkyrie is helping the .422” cases become (somewhat) more accepted.

Oh and since I’m dreaming, let’s ditch the 1-12” twist.
There is an AICS magazine option for BR cartridges.
 
As the OP, I guess it’s OK to chime in.
What I would like to see is a cartridge that pushes 40 grain bullets safely in the 4000 FPS range. The .378” boltface cases are already maxed out and most anything on the .473” boltface is either too large (capacity wise) or is too short to reliably feed through a magazine. i know first-hand that manufacturers aren’t interested in cartridges that are finicky to run through box magazines.

Maybe it’s time for a cartridge based off the 6.8 SPC. While that boltface isn’t as mainstream, the Valkyrie is helping the .422” cases become (somewhat) more accepted.

Oh and since I’m dreaming, let’s ditch the 1-12” twist.
The 20 Nosler, as they've drawn it up, has a fair bit more case capacity than would a 20-6.8SPC and with a 26 inch barrel and even a 40gr I think it would be right there knocking on the door of 4000FPS and probably easily get there in the hands of reloaders and still do it on a small bolt face.

A 6.8SPC necked down to .20 cal would only have about the same case capacity as a 204 Ruger so no real gain there.

When I had my 20-222 built a few years ago I drug my feet on picking a cartridge for a long time and talked to Nosler numerous times trying to get an idea if or when they were going to make brass for their new 20 Nosler. The first few times I called Nosler their Techs had no idea what I was talking about and when I finally got someone who did they had no information on a release date so I just went forward with my plan to have an 11tw 20-222 built to go along with my 8tw 20-250.
 
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Everyone loves the sako .222 rifle. Maybe a factory sako and tikka? Or lapua? 20-222 with 30 degree shoulder? Is that the Vartarg turbo?
 
... "20 Practical", which is just a .223 Rem necked down.

We don't really know why, but this has proven to be extremely accurate, ...
I haven’t found any cartridge in 20 cal yet that wasn’t extremely accurate! It’s just the nature of the 20 cals. Build the rifle right and it will shoot bugholes.

Plus the accuracy of the 223 parent case is no secret.
 
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I really would like to give the 19’s a go, but I am cautious about it because of only one place for bullets (to my knowledge).

I dipped my toe into the pool of sub 22 calibers a short few years back. It is a deep pool, I am up to my neck now, lol.

I read a lot and listened a lot , several folks on this thread included. I have had very few issues with the 17’s and 20’s, even those were small issues. The 204 has shown to be easy enough to work with, getting speed and accuracy fairly easily. Now I just tweak a little here and there to gain a smallish gain in accuracy. I look forward to wearing out this 204 so I can order a new one with zero freebore.
Center fire 17’s a well kept secret. Those that have problems with them don’t fully understand them it seems.
 
Who needs a mag" Single feed.
There has been a few folks that have necked down the 6.8 SPC to 22 and even 20.
I went as far as building a "6.8 BR". Turned out to be a bug hole maker without too much work. ;) Me thinks Wildcatting will NEVER die. :D
Yeah I prefer to use my varmint bolt rifles as single shots. Build on a single shot receiver or with a single shot follower in the mag.

I even started taking out all my ejector springs. That way I can just pluck the spent cases from the bolt face.

Im sure coyote hunters would need a repeater tho.
 
I dipped my toe in the 204 market when it first came out but only for the brass and built a 22-204, 6mm-204 and a 25-204, all great cartridges that do exactly what I planned for them. I won an AR in 20 Practical and really liked the 20 cal. I built a 20P for open country pelt hunting and have another in the works for a coyote calling rifle, Rem 600(originally a 223) Criterion Remage barrel and a 1.5-6x40 scope. The rifle is a 6x45 right now but too heavy handed for pelt hunting. The 22-204 is still killing coyotes for pelts and is still one of my favorites with a 40gr NBT 16yrs and running now.
 
Yeah I prefer to use my varmint bolt rifles as single shots. Build on a single shot receiver or with a single shot follower in the mag.

I even started taking out all my ejector springs. That way I can just pluck the spent cases from the bolt face.

Im sure coyote hunters would need a repeater tho.
Same here, I removed the ejectors from my BR‘s and doing the same with the in progress 6BRA. I built a AR 6ARC and 20P for the role of live varmint repeater.
 
Seems to me there are several reasons we might not expect many (if any) new .20 caliber factory offerings. The .204 Ruger (along with .20 Practical 20/222, etc.) are fully capable of getting just about all the velocity one is probably going to want to run the 32 and 39 and 40 grain bullets at. These cartridges just plain excel over Vartarg and smaller cartridges for the .20. I see the guys necking down .22 Hornet and such - but that is like building separate .22 rimfire rifles for the short, long and long rifle. Why do it when the long rifle does it all just as well with a bit more powder. For a new cartridge to be commercially successful, it will have to either be far more effective or far more efficient. It doesn't make much sense to me to try to reinvent the wheel when one has velocity limited to the limitations of bullets.

That said, IF we had a larger selection of larger bullets for the .20 (both leaded and lead-free), a faster twist to spin them, AND with a new cartridge with powder enough to launch them at "small bullet" velocities, that would be something worth looking at, especially while maintaining the .223 bolt face and keeping the cartridge small enough to run in an A/R. If it can't run in an A/R, that takes away a lot of customers - and bolt guns can shoot anything, including all the popular .20 caliber "upgrades, like .20 PPC and larger that we already have. Seems the only reason the .204 Ruger exists is for those whom don't hand load, as I think most folks would rather use inexpensive and always-available .223 brass if they reload. One can buy Lapua .223 brass for not much more than most factory .204 Ruger. If a Vartarg or other smaller .20 caliber cartridge had any benefit over the .223-sized cases, I'd use it. But to have a smidgen less recoil, a few more rounds shot before barrel cooling and a few grains of powder saved are the only attributes over the .223-sized cases. To me, that just doesn't offset the velocity loss, increased brass cost and availability - so I just can't see a smaller sized cartridge coming out at all.

So the question is whether a manufacturer thinks in terms of unseating the .223-sized case with something that is better. And enough so to lure the legions of re-loaders to use their brass instead of cheap and plentiful .223 brass. So - I'm thinking it will be a cartridge just a bit bigger than the .223, maybe more like a Grendel-sized case to shoot a 55 bullet or similar. The problem is - lead-free bullets may be more prevalent in the future. That creates a problem with the small diameter of the .20 in terms of throating. To get a 55 grain leaded bullet synched with proper throating would probably require a 50-grain lead-free bullet to have similar throating, magazine length, internal powder capacity, etc. No such "heavy" weight lead-free bullet currently exists that I know of in .20 caliber- so perhaps another bullet would need to be devised. I think that would be ideal.
 
Anything 20 cal is job specific.
In 2004 when the 204 was introduced, coyotes were not yet an urban problem. There were the above factory chamberings that could be used, plus 22WMR, 17HMR, and the ubiquitous 22LR.
What sells guns? Hunting, or anything that lends credence to manhood.
Toss out the 204 to magnum worshipers and mall ninjas, and it's as well received as a pill to cause erectile dysfunction.
When you consider how effective a cartridge like the 20 Vartarg is with only 18 grains of powder, it doesn't bode well for cartridges like the 20 Nosler, unless you're an "anything Nosler" fan boy.
One of the gents who shoots our club factory matches has a 20 Vartag Cooper rifle. We shoot at a 200 yd IBS target at 100 yds....1" 10 ring. I have never seen him shoot less than a 250 with that rifle and often 8-10X. Quite a combo!!!!
 
never messed with 20s so:
If you were designing a 20 ground up start over what twist and what new bullet would you use? Have company like berger design a new bullet, saami a cartridge, maybe it would go somewhere. Call it the 20 creedmini
 
In my opinion Nosler screwed up instead of the 20 nosler the should have saami the 20VT even if they changed the name.
Berger already has the 35 and 40 gr bullet problem is getting your hands on them.
Nosler's 34 gr bullet shoots fairly well for a cheapo bullet on sage rats.
I wonder sometimes who makes there decisions same thing when they specd the freebore on there Nosler line of 28 and 30
 

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