Actually it is the other way around the higher the frequency the shorter the wave length and at that frequency the current is conducted in pipes called wave guides rather than wires. This is due to a phenomenon known as skin effect. The wave-guides are normally rectangular.
Oh dang! - Labradar LX - Small form factor
- Thread starter Dimner
- Start date
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
So the 60Ghz radar units are using waveguides instead of planar printed circuit antennas?
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
There are/will be more automotive chirp radar systems in automobiles than all brands of shooting sports products.
Millions of them.
Modifying the auto system designs to detect fast tiny bullets, single range wide beams or narrow beam for multiple ranges, economically is the trick.
24GHZ systems are 'Old School'.
60 to 90GHZ systems are already 'in the field'.
The cross sectional area of the object to be detected, the return signal transmitter (maybe the bullet base going down field? ) compared to wavelength (at least 1/2 wavelength cross section) of the wave/pulse/chirp is one factor in detectablility.
wave length:
10GHZ = 1.180"
24GHZ = 0.492"
60GHZ = 0.197"
90GHZ = 0.131"
115GHZ = 0.102"
One difference between a ballistic radar and an automotive radar is beam orientation.
Automotive antennas will likely be Wide in the horizontal and Narrow in the vertical.
Ballistic Calculating (multiple range results) will likely be the opposite, and more narrow.
Wide beams lose energy density at smaller ranges than narrow beams.
Thus the need to align BC calculating systems.
I think someone described the Garmin Xero as a 50 degree beam, requiring minimal alignment to function ( a plus for ease of use).
A 50 degree beam (3000 MOA
)is how wide at 100 yards?
A 22 cal flat base bullet is how wide at 100 yards?
(trick question, it's more than a wavelength at 60 GHZ)
Millions of them.
Modifying the auto system designs to detect fast tiny bullets, single range wide beams or narrow beam for multiple ranges, economically is the trick.
24GHZ systems are 'Old School'.
60 to 90GHZ systems are already 'in the field'.
The cross sectional area of the object to be detected, the return signal transmitter (maybe the bullet base going down field? ) compared to wavelength (at least 1/2 wavelength cross section) of the wave/pulse/chirp is one factor in detectablility.
wave length:
10GHZ = 1.180"
24GHZ = 0.492"
60GHZ = 0.197"
90GHZ = 0.131"
115GHZ = 0.102"
One difference between a ballistic radar and an automotive radar is beam orientation.
Automotive antennas will likely be Wide in the horizontal and Narrow in the vertical.
Ballistic Calculating (multiple range results) will likely be the opposite, and more narrow.
Wide beams lose energy density at smaller ranges than narrow beams.
Thus the need to align BC calculating systems.
I think someone described the Garmin Xero as a 50 degree beam, requiring minimal alignment to function ( a plus for ease of use).
A 50 degree beam (3000 MOA
)is how wide at 100 yards?A 22 cal flat base bullet is how wide at 100 yards?
(trick question, it's more than a wavelength at 60 GHZ)
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Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
Recent changes to FCC part 15 rules allow 60GHZ Field Disturbance Sensors
www.federalregister.gov
Under older rules:
The LabRadar FCC ID PDG-LABRADAR operates @
24080-24168 MHZ
The Garmin Zero, FCC ID IPH-04185, operates @
SQI-AndiScam, 24GHZ, EU approved, FCC ID not found.
Federal Register :: Request Access
www.federalregister.gov
Under older rules:
The LabRadar FCC ID PDG-LABRADAR operates @
24080-24168 MHZ
The Garmin Zero, FCC ID IPH-04185, operates @
| 24078-24172 MHZ |
SQI-AndiScam, 24GHZ, EU approved, FCC ID not found.
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Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
Little bitty units, 24GHZ or 60Ghz will have little bitty antenna arrays and be limited to short range velocities.
How big is the LabRadar antenna array?
How big is the Caldwell unit array.
I like my Garmin Xero. Simple to use, but it will likely be the last 24GHZ unit to hit the market (except for china clones) due to recent FCC rule changes. It is made in Taiwan though.
Here is a relatively large antenna for a drone, 2.4GHZ (control) and 5.8GHZ (FPV video).
How big is the LabRadar antenna array?
How big is the Caldwell unit array.
I like my Garmin Xero. Simple to use, but it will likely be the last 24GHZ unit to hit the market (except for china clones) due to recent FCC rule changes. It is made in Taiwan though.
Here is a relatively large antenna for a drone, 2.4GHZ (control) and 5.8GHZ (FPV video).
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Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
The Caldwell 60GHZ antenna.
No FCC code yet.
Anyone brave enough to open the 24GHZ Garmin and take a pic of antenna?
Or the 60GHZ LX?
Seems they have a 45 day hold on FCC data.
No FCC code yet.
Anyone brave enough to open the 24GHZ Garmin and take a pic of antenna?
Or the 60GHZ LX?
Seems they have a 45 day hold on FCC data.
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dgeesaman
Gold $$ Contributor
It might give you blue teeth though.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Or roast your nuts.....
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
I think this summer/fall will bring new units to market.
I have and like the Garmin unit but for the price it's a little behind on technology. Small footprint, small antenna, wide beam, 24GHZ easy to use and a brand people like. The wide beam angle short range pickup doesn't seem to need a trigger.
Long range units do seem to rely on some type of trigger.
From what I've seen, 100 yd pick up requires a large footprint high gain narrow beam antenna and tight alignment.
You pick the type you want but longer range will be a larger unit.
Compared to 24GHZ units, the 60GHZ antennas will be smaller with smaller beam width and higher gain. It's a function of antenna aperture but also bullet reflection with a shorter wavelength.
Options in the market are:
Small 24GHZ,
Small 60GHZ,
Large 24GHZ,
and
Large 60GHZ.
The NEXT BIG STEP will be Phased Array, 60 -90GHZ units that can auto steer the beam to catch the best downrange return from a bullet base.
Maybe a couple test shots and unit will self align to a downrange bullet.
I have and like the Garmin unit but for the price it's a little behind on technology. Small footprint, small antenna, wide beam, 24GHZ easy to use and a brand people like. The wide beam angle short range pickup doesn't seem to need a trigger.
Long range units do seem to rely on some type of trigger.
From what I've seen, 100 yd pick up requires a large footprint high gain narrow beam antenna and tight alignment.
You pick the type you want but longer range will be a larger unit.
Compared to 24GHZ units, the 60GHZ antennas will be smaller with smaller beam width and higher gain. It's a function of antenna aperture but also bullet reflection with a shorter wavelength.
Options in the market are:
Small 24GHZ,
Small 60GHZ,
Large 24GHZ,
and
Large 60GHZ.
The NEXT BIG STEP will be Phased Array, 60 -90GHZ units that can auto steer the beam to catch the best downrange return from a bullet base.
Maybe a couple test shots and unit will self align to a downrange bullet.
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Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
Doppler?
ALL bullets traveling away from the radar source will give Doppler shifted returns. Continuous waves shifted in frequency or gated and sampled returns, or even returns from Chirped transmitters, exhibit Doppler shift.
Measuring the return signals of a FAST moving bullet (3000 to 5000fps) is easy peasy. You need enough gain to detect the return signal and subtract the frequency from the transmitted signal. The result is Doppler shift or Doppler +/- Chirp. You don't record the 24 or 60GHZ signal, just the shift frequency.
Consider the data rate of 4K video and the amount of data contained in a single frame. Or maybe the speed of the pixel in a 4k, 50" TV set.
The dot moves at about 62000fps (hope I didn't make a decimal error).
I have a 24megapixel Pentax camera. Electronic shutter can capture that 24mp in 1/8000 seconds and each pixel has "data". Imagine capturing an analog waveform from a Doppler mixer instead of an image sensor.
One data point per inch for a 3000fps bullet is 10,800 data points over 300 yards, about 0.3 seconds of data for the whole trip.
ALL bullets traveling away from the radar source will give Doppler shifted returns. Continuous waves shifted in frequency or gated and sampled returns, or even returns from Chirped transmitters, exhibit Doppler shift.
Measuring the return signals of a FAST moving bullet (3000 to 5000fps) is easy peasy
. You need enough gain to detect the return signal and subtract the frequency from the transmitted signal. The result is Doppler shift or Doppler +/- Chirp. You don't record the 24 or 60GHZ signal, just the shift frequency.Consider the data rate of 4K video and the amount of data contained in a single frame. Or maybe the speed of the pixel in a 4k, 50" TV set.
The dot moves at about 62000fps (hope I didn't make a decimal error).
I have a 24megapixel Pentax camera. Electronic shutter can capture that 24mp in 1/8000 seconds and each pixel has "data". Imagine capturing an analog waveform from a Doppler mixer instead of an image sensor.
One data point per inch for a 3000fps bullet is 10,800 data points over 300 yards, about 0.3 seconds of data for the whole trip.
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You can in short range group, 600, 1000 IBS. Don’t know about score.
Edit: just looked through the score rulebook. Can’t find anything prohibiting electronics.
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Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
The FCC approval for the Garmin has a 180 day
Request for Confidentiality Starting 10/20/23.
No official internal pics yet.
I know someone has opened theirs
The FCC approval can't be found (by me) for the
Caldwell 60GHZ unit or the LabRadar LX.
This is likely due to modified testing of 60GHZ devices, to comply with latest FCC requirements of upper/lower freq limits, and power levels.
These are likely just software changes, but would require additional testing.
IF anyone has the FCC IDs for these two, post them up
Request for Confidentiality Starting 10/20/23.
No official internal pics yet.
I know someone has opened theirs
The FCC approval can't be found (by me) for the
Caldwell 60GHZ unit or the LabRadar LX.
This is likely due to modified testing of 60GHZ devices, to comply with latest FCC requirements of upper/lower freq limits, and power levels.
These are likely just software changes, but would require additional testing.
IF anyone has the FCC IDs for these two, post them up
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A 50 degree beam (3000 MOA
I cannot share beam width of the Garmin but I can tell you it isn't nearly that wide.
I asked some questions and got some answers so here you go. These are based on questions people have been asking me and I am just trying to help where I can. Please note these are from the people at LR and not from me.
1) The LabRadar LX has a beam of 32 degrees.
2) It runs about 6 hours on constant use, and 10 with off/on use.
3) The original will remain in production alongside the LX so both will still be available.
4) The new LX unit does not do long range tracking like the original unit. Think inside 20 yards etc based on bullet size etc etc.
5) No trade in on the old units.
6) The LabRadar LX is made in Canada.
7) Shipping will be around early April.
8) It has been in development for more than 18 months now, and field testing for more than 6 months.
1) The LabRadar LX has a beam of 32 degrees.
2) It runs about 6 hours on constant use, and 10 with off/on use.
3) The original will remain in production alongside the LX so both will still be available.
4) The new LX unit does not do long range tracking like the original unit. Think inside 20 yards etc based on bullet size etc etc.
5) No trade in on the old units.
6) The LabRadar LX is made in Canada.
7) Shipping will be around early April.
8) It has been in development for more than 18 months now, and field testing for more than 6 months.
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks, looks like you'll be our source of info for a while.
LabRadar (orange)24GHZ Beam width 7.6(H) x 18.5(V) degrees,
LabRadar LX 60GHZ Beam Width 32 degrees (H?),
Garmin Xero 24GHZ Beam width not nearly 50 degrees,
True Ballistics FX 24GHZ Beam Width 12(H) x 21(V) degrees,
Caldwell Velociradar 60GHZ Beam Width unknown.
LabRadar (orange
)24GHZ Beam width 7.6(H) x 18.5(V) degrees,LabRadar LX 60GHZ Beam Width 32 degrees (H?),
Garmin Xero 24GHZ Beam width not nearly 50 degrees,
True Ballistics FX 24GHZ Beam Width 12(H) x 21(V) degrees,
Caldwell Velociradar 60GHZ Beam Width unknown.
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hoz53
Gold $$ Contributor
lots of info Rocket— Thanks for that. As it appears the frequencies youve given for the LR and Garmin overlap do you think using them both at the same time at a single pointThanks, looks like you'll be our source of info for a while.
LabRadar (orange
LabRadar LX 60GHZ Beam Width 32 degrees (H?),
Garmin Xero 24GHZ Beam width not nearly 50 degrees,
True Ballistics FX 24GHZ Beam Width 12(H) x 21(V) degrees,
Caldwell Velociradar 60GHZ Beam Width unknown.
( one gun) would cause them to interfere with each other?
Rocketvapor
Gold $$ Contributor
Multiple channels, auto avoidance.
I think. The FCC provides (legal) frequencies in the 24GHZ and 60GHZ bands (and other bands) for Field Sensitive Devices. I think all (most) devices have manual or auto channels to transmit on.
Thanks go to those that leak tiny bits of info. More to come when the FCC-IDs are issued and the silence period is over.
Things will get better for us as the year progresses.
I bought the Garmin, jumped with the crowd.
In stock/out of stock/in stock, oh boy got one.
Had an optical, tough to set up for prone, MagnetoSpeed that really wasn't that hard to swap from mine to the wife's.
Big bull barrel and the MS didn't seem to hurt with load development.
The wife and I shoot together, range practice, etc.
We are usually about a meter apart (barrel to barrel) and take turns shooting. Garmin between us works. Move closer to the shooter left or right.
Tried the range's LabRadar but prone at the edge of the slab and barrel muzzle was over a foot out in the grass. Not knowing operation, could not get many shots to register.
All my fault. I think most problems are user generated, even BT problems.
Falling off a bench doesn't help. Older USB connector are easy to damage, just ask my wife
The large frame (for the long range beam required) of the LR seems to be damage prone.
Those that really take care of the LR, know how to use it, gets better results.
The somewhat smaller (not much) of the other long range devices seem sturdier.
Maybe. Some seem to self-trigger off the edge of beam crossing (low strength of beam) and measure as the bullet enters the stronger section of the beam. Eliminating trigger issues would help any type made.
The Garmin also self triggers. No shock, noise, flash, vibration. Just waits for the bullet to finally get into the beam.
One thing that misleads most is Alignment. No matter what sub-transmitting mode, speed measurement comes from Doppler shift.
Beam going one direction, bullet traveling in the beam reflecting a small signal . If the bullet doesn't get into beam center you won't get long range results. If return signal comes from an angle you WILL get cosine error. The current crop of Doppler units can not determine angle for correction. That takes at least two signals or a steerable signal. Some allow you to enter an offset and hope you have it pointed down the bullet path. Narrow beam width units lose peak response with just a few degrees misalignment. Wider beam widths still capture but risk picking up a shooter in the next lane.
Current power level rules (for type approved devices) make wide beam/ long range detection sort of impossible. Our government won't let you send a strong enough signal to pick up little bullet butts at long range without making it a tiny beam with a higher power density.
When the wife and I play at the range, I photo good cherry picked groups.
We go over the data the next day. I could have used my own SD card in the LR, but the Garmin makes it easy.
Could I have waited for something else? Why. I like Garmin but it's like last years car model.
Will satisfy me for a while.
I think. The FCC provides (legal) frequencies in the 24GHZ and 60GHZ bands (and other bands) for Field Sensitive Devices. I think all (most) devices have manual or auto channels to transmit on.
Thanks go to those that leak tiny bits of info. More to come when the FCC-IDs are issued and the silence period is over.
Things will get better for us as the year progresses.
I bought the Garmin, jumped with the crowd.
In stock/out of stock/in stock, oh boy got one.
Had an optical, tough to set up for prone, MagnetoSpeed that really wasn't that hard to swap from mine to the wife's.
Big bull barrel and the MS didn't seem to hurt with load development.
The wife and I shoot together, range practice, etc.
We are usually about a meter apart (barrel to barrel) and take turns shooting. Garmin between us works. Move closer to the shooter left or right.
Tried the range's LabRadar but prone at the edge of the slab and barrel muzzle was over a foot out in the grass. Not knowing operation, could not get many shots to register.
All my fault. I think most problems are user generated, even BT problems.
Falling off a bench doesn't help. Older USB connector are easy to damage, just ask my wife
The large frame (for the long range beam required) of the LR seems to be damage prone.
Those that really take care of the LR, know how to use it, gets better results.
The somewhat smaller (not much) of the other long range devices seem sturdier.
Maybe. Some seem to self-trigger off the edge of beam crossing (low strength of beam) and measure as the bullet enters the stronger section of the beam. Eliminating trigger issues would help any type made.
The Garmin also self triggers. No shock, noise, flash, vibration. Just waits for the bullet to finally get into the beam.
One thing that misleads most is Alignment. No matter what sub-transmitting mode, speed measurement comes from Doppler shift.
Beam going one direction, bullet traveling in the beam reflecting a small signal . If the bullet doesn't get into beam center you won't get long range results. If return signal comes from an angle you WILL get cosine error. The current crop of Doppler units can not determine angle for correction. That takes at least two signals or a steerable signal. Some allow you to enter an offset and hope you have it pointed down the bullet path. Narrow beam width units lose peak response with just a few degrees misalignment. Wider beam widths still capture but risk picking up a shooter in the next lane.
Current power level rules (for type approved devices) make wide beam/ long range detection sort of impossible. Our government won't let you send a strong enough signal to pick up little bullet butts at long range without making it a tiny beam with a higher power density.
When the wife and I play at the range, I photo good cherry picked groups
.We go over the data the next day. I could have used my own SD card in the LR, but the Garmin makes it easy.
Could I have waited for something else? Why. I like Garmin but it's like last years car model.
Will satisfy me for a while.
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